Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[Jgoal55]

It shouldn't need adjustment every time you cycle power. I think I have read of some the take a while to reach equilibrium again. How long have you let it sit after a power up? What is the water lever difference before and after the power cycle?

I let it sit quite a while. The overflow actually purges the air in the pipes very quickly after restart (probably within 1-2 minutes). Then it takes a little bit longer for the water level to settle.

However, when I restart it can vary sometimes between 1-3". The main issue is that its always 1-3" upwards on restart and then it starts draining into the open channel line and makes noise.

I know its supposed to fill the overflow box entirely upon start up and then settle back down, but sometimes it will just stay there instead of settling back to normal operation level.

 

[BeanAnimal]

That would indicate that the open channel is likely taking a good portion of the flow and the siphon is not fully purged of air. This happens when the siphon discharge is too deep in the sump and/or it is has a slight air leak.

 

[Jgoal55]

That would indicate that the open channel is likely taking a good portion of the flow and the siphon is not fully purged of air. This happens when the siphon discharge is too deep in the sump and/or it is has a slight air leak.

Thanks Bean. When you say the "siphon discharge" you're talking about the main line (full), correct?

That is sitting about .5" below the water line, maybe less. (all three pipes are about the same distance below the water line).

As for air leaks, are you talking about air leaks in the plumbing in the overflow box that sits on top of the standpipe? (i.e. - where the elbows are) and are you referring to an air leak on the full siphon as well?

 

[TheFishMan65]

Yes the siphon is the main/full channel. If this get air and can't purge it can cause start up issues.

I think he means any or all of the above. Any leak is bad. Several folks have had trouble with bad plumbingand air leaked in through a connection. Are the siphon elbows out of water? are they glued?

 

[acropora1981]

read backwards in the thread the dims are posted several times.

The thing is that there are like 4000+ posts...

 

[uncleof6]

You don't want your fall from the water level in the tank (generally 1" from the top edge of the glass,) to the water level in the overflow to be more than a few inches, else it will be noisy. Waterline in the overflow will be somewhere around the upper part of the inlet elbows (down turned) for your standpipes. Measure your assembly. Front to back wide enough to accommodate the plumbing and get your hand in to work on it. Homework time.

 

[reefermad619]

Bean,

I'm having a custom rimless starfire 40BR (36 x 18 x 18) built with an external glass overflow. I need recommendations on the dimensions for the external overflow so that it will be able to hold all of the plumbing peices and elbows etc for your system. I'm not going to do it the entire length of the tank but It will be 18" long. So... how deep and how tall should the overflow box be to accomodate your silent and failsafe overflow system?

Thanks in advance!

I made my internal OF about 4" high. This was enough to accommodate the pluming and the main drain elbow was about 1/2" from the bottom of the OF. The depth was figured out by adding 1" to the lengths of the elbow. That way I could get it in and out with ease. Unc has a very good point, reading the thread will help you big time! Some people have deviated from the exact plans, one of those deviations may work out better for you. Plus seeing pics of how others have plumbed their tank might change your mind about how you want you overflow to be. If you're having a tank customer made, might as well make it perfect then be pi$$ed off because you saw it done a better way. I read the whole thread. It answered all the Qs I had and I deviated from the original plans and my system was dead silent. I mean D E A D silent. It even balanced out in less the 30 seconds after outages. Trust me. Read it.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

+1 to that, did the same. it does get old reading the same questions over and over again, but such is the case with any thread this size. I found the best way to do it is to read until you start seeing a lot of repeated questions, then start scanning for pictures of people's builds and stop and follow ones you find useful.

 

[Andrew17030]

I have a question that I could likely answer reading through this thread's entirety however that is a large task, as, I have realized having read through the first and last 20 or something pages.

Here is what I want to do:

1. Utilize most of the engineering the OP outlined. (e.g. full syphon line, open channel line, backup line, and the necessary flow restricting gate valves.)

2. Utilize an internal overflow, again, utilizing most of the engineering the OP outlined.

3. Deviate a little from the downturned elbow the OP outlined, to create the weirs. In an attempt to preserve the inherently limited space of an internal overflow.

4. Use a space saving standpipe design and the syphon concept that will handle the water volume, in any single line, in the event any two lines are compromised.

My design requirements:
1. 1” line dimensions
2. 1.5” bulkheads (simply for the ability to use fittings that do not restrict flow significantly more than the 1” line dimension, and diversity of future options.)
3. Support a range on flow between 950-1100 g/hr.
4. Internal overflow 18” L x 4.5” W x 23” H

Line A: Full syphon line
Line B: Open channel line
Line C: Back up line

My idea:
I’m gonna drop the S-bomb, ready?

Use the compact stockman design without the air valves for lines A and C. The top of the standpipe A would be 1” below the top of standpipe C. This would be approximately 2” and 3” respectively, below the water level in the overflow and 3” and 4” respectively, below the top of the overflow. The tank will be rimless so I want to avoid any components of the overflow system being visible when looking at the tank. With line B sane stockman standpipe the top of the standpipe would be below line A, approximately 6”. I want to use ¼” rigid PVC threaded into the top of line B fitted with a valve. Line B’s level in the overflow, is so that I cant bring a ¼” line of ridged PVC with a valve on it to where there would be air and still have it not visible and able to serve its purpose in the event of a compromise in lines A and/or C.

How has this idea been used with internal overflows?

 

[uncleof6]

1: Seems to me that you want to slam the tank against the wall. As soon as you do this, get it up and running, you will need to reach/work/access the backside of the tank and you will be hosed. Bite the bullet and use this system as designed, with just the elbows inside the overflow, and the plumbing behind the tank.

2: A 23" deep overflow, will have an issue with vertical mixing, and with the lack of circulation at the lower regions of the overflow, and associated issues. Some would argue, fill it with sand, instant DSB--- even though service may not be needed, an internal 23" deep overflow is not going to be serviceable.

3: line C must be "dry" not 2" below the water level in the overflow.

Seems you are trying to reinvent the wheel. No matter how you try to rearrange the system, if set up correctly, you are going to see it. The "best hide" is exactly as designed, and the later internal/external design.

The task and time to read this thread in its entirety, will make up for itself in knowledge, and a system that works well, not merely "functions." And save you a huge headache.

 

[Jgoal55]

Yes the siphon is the main/full channel. If this get air and can't purge it can cause start up issues.

I think he means any or all of the above. Any leak is bad. Several folks have had trouble with bad plumbingand air leaked in through a connection. Are the siphon elbows out of water? are they glued?

Thanks. Yeah, all my connections are glued.

The top half open channel elbow is above the water level. The full siphon channel's elbow is pretty much entirely submerged when the water is at optimal level.

Im now back to thinking the issues with the water level in my overflow box weren't due to the return pump after all. Since my last post about 6 days ago the water level has dropped significantly and I don't know why...here's a photo to show about how much!

 

[buaalihua]

help a lot for my plumping..thanks

 

[Jreid35]

My current plan is this:
Set up a 40 Gal Breeder DT on a custom stand with a 20 Gal Long sump underneath.
The DT will be drilled for installation of a Bean SFOS utilizing a Coast to Coast 'overflow box' incorporated into the Aquascaping on the back wall of the tank with a RIO+ 1700 return pump in the sump.
Provided this "plan" garners no 'absolutely better not' input from folks, here are some questions I have.

Will using the size of plumbing shown in this thread cause any issues?

My thoughts on using the exact items are that I will have the necessary hardware when the time comes for the next expansion of the DT

If there will be issues and I should use smaller sized hardware, what sizes might I need to use?

Thanks in advance for the input.

PS
We currently have a 29 Gal reef tank with no sump that we will be expanding from.

 

[uncleof6]

My current plan is this:
Set up a 40 Gal Breeder DT on a custom stand with a 20 Gal Long sump underneath.
The DT will be drilled for installation of a Bean SFOS utilizing a Coast to Coast 'overflow box' incorporated into the Aquascaping on the back wall of the tank with a RIO+ 1700 return pump in the sump.
Provided this "plan" garners no 'absolutely better not' input from folks, here are some questions I have.

Will using the size of plumbing shown in this thread cause any issues?

No. It is overkill for the flow rate, however, the system will function properly.

My thoughts on using the exact items are that I will have the necessary hardware when the time comes for the next expansion of the DT

If there will be issues and I should use smaller sized hardware, what sizes might I need to use?

1" top to bottom siphon and emergency, with 1.25" top to bottom open channel, would be good for this system. As a matter of principle, I don't use smaller than 1" pipe on a system, and 1.25" is the smallest practical size for an open channel drain. 1" will serve you up to 1500 gph, perhaps more.

Thanks in advance for the input.

PS
We currently have a 29 Gal reef tank with no sump that we will be expanding from.

 

[Enthusiastic]

Thanks Beananimal and all YOU who invent, explain, modify, teach - HELP for newbies like us to become experts like you. The main point I got reading lots at this forum is that all of us (except maybe cynics) just enjoy what we do - the process - and get happy when success comes finally.

I am new to this hobby (though enjoying already fully) and I'm a little confused. I've ordered 170g tank (84"*19,7*23,6"water level) and it is already has been built with square corner overflow (consisting of two walls) the water coming from beneath the first wall up to the top the second wall and then pouring from the second wall into the box(second wall is 1" below the first one). The inner box size is 7"*7" with 2,5" hole at the bottom.

1. As I understand it is best to use the bottom bulkhead narrowing it from 2,5" to 1,5" pipe and then to 1" downside elbow for the open channel.

2. Can I put several side holes at this open channel pipe as it comes from bottom for the reason of deepness of the overflow box - 19" (as it is mentioned in the thread otherwise bottom water will not well circulate to the sump)?

3. At what level should I drill side glass for siphon. I've read that at beananimal's setup (considering his is L style) it is 4,25" from the top of the ovelflow to the center of pipe. Another setup similiar to mine is 8" below the water line but still water covers top of the downside elbow several inches. As I understand it is regulated by closing valve much more than it would be closed if the pipe was taller. Is it OK or it restricts system too much. What level is optimal considering that too big distance between top of the overflow and water will give noise which is not a point for this system at all.


Thanks all. This hobby is magnificent. It becomes BIG part of your life.

 

[Biggar]

Will a Beananimal Work with Dual Overflows?

Will a Beananimal Work with Dual Overflows?

My system will be dual overflows, with all for holes as drains. 4x 1" inch bulkheads

Almost every Beananimal set up I have seen is used on a single overflow system. Is there a reason for that?

Apparently, one drain will be doing almost all the work(the full syphon drain). The other durso with airline just picks up the slack. And the last one is mainly used as a fail safe and to help purge the system when turning on the return pump.

If most of my water is draining on one corner flow, the other overflow might get backed up and really overflow!

If anyone has this type of beananimal on corner overflows, im interested how it is working.

Or if some can explain if this will work, and how to set it up

Thanks Mike

 

[uncleof6]

Thanks Beananimal and all YOU who invent, explain, modify, teach - HELP for newbies like us to become experts like you. The main point I got reading lots at this forum is that all of us (except maybe cynics) just enjoy what we do - the process - and get happy when success comes finally.

I am new to this hobby (though enjoying already fully) and I'm a little confused. I've ordered 170g tank (84"*19,7*23,6"water level) and it is already has been built with square corner overflow (consisting of two walls) the water coming from beneath the first wall up to the top the second wall and then pouring from the second wall into the box(second wall is 1" below the first one). The inner box size is 7"*7" with 2,5" hole at the bottom.

An overflow, is supposed to allow surface water, were organics collect, to be skimmed off, and sent down the drain to be processed. If the overflow draws water from under a baffle, then it is not providing this function, even though it goes up and over the second baffle. Surface skimming, is the only function of an overflow. The drains handle the rest. If i understand you correctly, this over flow is not properly designed.

1. As I understand it is best to use the bottom bulkhead narrowing it from 2,5" to 1,5" pipe and then to 1" downside elbow for the open channel.

I would say, the most efficient open channel, would be 1.5" all the way from the top, including the elbow, all the way down into the sump. All the diameter changes, cause additional turbulence in the line, and that is what we are trying to avoid. 1" being impractical for use as an open channel.

2. Can I put several side holes at this open channel pipe as it comes from bottom for the reason of deepness of the overflow box - 19" (as it is mentioned in the thread otherwise bottom water will not well circulate to the sump)?

No, this will allow too much water to flow in the open channel, defeating the whole purpose of this stand pipe. When adjusted properly, the open channel has very little flow in it. This keeps it silent, bubble free, and provides the self adjustment capability of the system.

3. At what level should I drill side glass for siphon. I've read that at beananimal's setup (considering his is L style) it is 4,25" from the top of the ovelflow to the center of pipe. Another setup similiar to mine is 8" below the water line but still water covers top of the downside elbow several inches. As I understand it is regulated by closing valve much more than it would be closed if the pipe was taller. Is it OK or it restricts system too much. What level is optimal considering that too big distance between top of the overflow and water will give noise which is not a point for this system at all.

The valve does control the water level in the overflow. This level is set after the siphon kicks in, and is raised by closing the valve slowly, till water just flows in the open channel. *Generally* this will place the water level in the overflow above the down turned elbow center line, usually not much above the top of the down turned elbow. If the water level is several inches above the elbows, I would wonder what is not adjusted right. Holes drilled in glass must be at minimum 1 hole diameter from the edges of the glass, and from each other. Since, the water level in the tank will generally be 1" below the top edge of the glass (bottom of the trim in a rimmed tank,) this will probably place the hole somewhat lower than 1 hole diameter, which is good. Since you want some drop from the tank water level, to the level in the overflow box, but not more than a few inches, and considering the water level in the overflow will be ~ top of the elbows, it becomes simple to calculate the hole placement, by assembling your plumbing and measuring. It is not necessarily going to be the same in different tanks, unless designed exactly the same. Regardless that the overflow is full tank height, these holes are going to be relatively close to the top of the tank, and flow in the lower regions of the box will be limited.

Thanks all. This hobby is magnificent. It becomes BIG part of your life.

 

[uncleof6]

My system will be dual overflows, with all for holes as drains. 4x 1" inch bulkheads

Almost every Beananimal set up I have seen is used on a single overflow system. Is there a reason for that?

Apparently, one drain will be doing almost all the work(the full syphon drain). The other durso with airline just picks up the slack. And the last one is mainly used as a fail safe and to help purge the system when turning on the return pump.

If most of my water is draining on one corner flow, the other overflow might get backed up and really overflow!

If anyone has this type of beananimal on corner overflows, im interested how it is working.

Or if some can explain if this will work, and how to set it up

Thanks Mike

The use of Bean's system with dual corner overflows has been extensively covered several times in this thread. Just to cover the basics:

Both the siphon and open channel must be in the same overflow. The dry emergency can be in the other overflow, along with the pump return. Best use of 4 holes. Flow in the lower regions of the first box will be limited, and in the second box, will be non existent. The system will function as expected, and your tank will not overflow.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I am new to this hobby (though enjoying already fully) and I'm a little confused. I've ordered 170g tank (84"*19,7*23,6"water level) and it is already has been built with square corner overflow (consisting of two walls) the water coming from beneath the first wall up to the top the second wall and then pouring from the second wall into the box(second wall is 1" below the first one). The inner box size is 7"*7" with 2,5" hole at the bottom.

It is unfortunate that you were not able to consult some of the forums before ordering your tank. The setup you describe will provide exactly zero surface skimming, something that is a MUST. You really have no choice but to modify the design of the overflow boxes before you procede any further.

Is this your idea, or that of the tank designer? If it is the tank designer, I would ask them to fix the issue, as an overflow that provides NO surface skimming is useless for a fish tank, especially a marine aquarium. If it was your idea, then simply chalk it up to not knowing and we can work to find a way to resolve the issue.

1. As I understand it is best to use the bottom bulkhead narrowing it from 2,5" to 1,5" pipe and then to 1" downside elbow for the open channel.

Not sure I follow what you are asking. There is a basic standpipe exploded view on my site. Lets figure out how to get your overflow skimming before we worry about pipes.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The use of Bean's system with dual corner overflows has been extensively covered several times in this thread. Just to cover the basics:

Both the siphon and open channel must be in the same overflow. The dry emergency can be in the other overflow, along with the pump return. Best use of 4 holes. Flow in the lower regions of the first box will be limited, and in the second box, will be non existent. The system will function as expected, and your tank will not overflow.

To add to what Jim has posted:

The downturned end of the open channel and or siphone can be extended to near the bottom of the overflow box. This will then allow it to pull water from deeper in the box. If this is done with the open channel, then you will get a little circulation. If this is done with the siphon, you will get a LOT of circulation but may also end up with scum in the overlfow box and a hard time getting the siphon to start due the potential for larger eara to air-lock.

My advice has been to fill the second box with sand to create a small RDSB and avoid the circulation issues.