Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

budster.stig1 said:
I do understand the purpose of this thread and have enjoyed following it for months now, I understand your objective designing this system, but their has to be room to consider the objectives of those who participate in this thread.
Click to expand...
Understand, I have no issue with those who desire to modify the design but my primary goal is helping folks build and troubleshoot the system as designed. To that end, it is important to keep the design goal (my design goal) in context to the design and choices made. Those who wish to follow their own path or more than welcome to, but the differences (beneficial or detrimintal) will likely be pointed out here for context. So, there is plenty of wiggle with regard to discussion or implementation, I just want to make sure that the context with regard to the published design is always kept at the forefront, as that is the purpose of this thread :)

In other words, the goal of this thread is not "overflows" or "siphon overflows" or "herbie overflows" in general, but targeted at implementation of the system as published. Your setup certainly falls within the basic design, but I feel it is important to point out where it differs (and the effects those differnces have) in context and function to the original design criteria and real life operating characteristics of the published design.
 
still having issues with the water trickling sound.
I did the pipe setup like that picture budster posted except all the pipes are same size.
It really fit how my cabinet was set up and still getting a sound like someone dripping water from a turkey baster like 3 feet above a bucket of water. No gurgling or slurping sounds at all; would be relaxing even if I wanted it to be there.
Other than that it establishes a siphon in about 90 seconds and gets to a stable level about halfway up the bulkhead very shortly after that.

Turns out i did my test with vinyl tubing like an idiot and just using a big coiled up piece so the water really never had more than like a 3" fall at any point.

Tilting didn't stop it. Even took off the emergency pipe so i could tilt it further and really make sure.

Are there any designs that take this problem into consideration? Like putting a loop in it at some point to fight acceleration from gravity or replacing the long vertical section with vinyl tube that's twisted in a particular configuration to promote sticking to the walls or reducing/expanding at a certain point or anything really?

edit: also, smaller lines wouldn't be an issue. I purposely made the drains over-sized at 3/4" and could easily drop down to 1/2" (except the bulkheads of course) I have the valve on the siphon line like 75% closed even. Been so long since i did physics stuff but throwing it in just in case using a smaller line would help the water form a sheet on the walls.
 
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Case in point to the above discussion:

Changing the design introduces variables that can become hard to troubleshoot.

If you still have that much noise with the open channel tilted (the water MUST run down the pipe wall) then the sound is either coming from the impact of the water, or from the siphon standpipe and not the open channel.

A) are there any air bubbles being ejected from either standpipe during normal (stable) operation?

B) are the standpipe intakes submerged, or is you open channel simply an open top standpipe with no elbow on it?

C) Is the discharge of the pipe submerged in the sump during normal operation (1/2" or so).

Smaller lines would be an issue. Even if the diameter was enough to create the siphon, the open channel would not operate as expected (depending on overall flow) and would have a very narrow bandwidth.

have you tried closing the siphon down a bit more to force MORE water through the open channel?
 
BeanAnimal said:
Understand, I have no issue with those who desire to modify the design but my primary goal is helping folks build and troubleshoot the system as designed. To that end, it is important to keep the design goal (my design goal) in context to the design and choices made. Those who wish to follow their own path or more than welcome to, but the differences (beneficial or detrimintal) will likely be pointed out here for context. So, there is plenty of wiggle with regard to discussion or implementation, I just want to make sure that the context with regard to the published design is always kept at the forefront, as that is the purpose of this thread :)

In other words, the goal of this thread is not "overflows" or "siphon overflows" or "herbie overflows" in general, but targeted at implementation of the system as published. Your setup certainly falls within the basic design, but I feel it is important to point out where it differs (and the effects those differnces have) in context and function to the original design criteria and real life operating characteristics of the published design.
Click to expand...

Please understand it is not your approach I have issue with.............enough said...........................Budster
 
BeanAnimal said:
Case in point to the above discussion:

Changing the design introduces variables that can become hard to troubleshoot.

If you still have that much noise with the open channel tilted (the water MUST run down the pipe wall) then the sound is either coming from the impact of the water, or from the siphon standpipe and not the open channel.

A) are there any air bubbles being ejected from either standpipe during normal (stable) operation?

B) are the standpipe intakes submerged, or is you open channel simply an open top standpipe with no elbow on it?

C) Is the discharge of the pipe submerged in the sump during normal operation (1/2" or so).

Smaller lines would be an issue. Even if the diameter was enough to create the siphon, the open channel would not operate as expected (depending on overall flow) and would have a very narrow bandwidth.

have you tried closing the siphon down a bit more to force MORE water through the open channel?
Click to expand...

A) no air bubbles at all once it settles down, The open channel pipe has bubbles for a long time before it settles though.
B) the intakes look exactly like the image on your guide page
C) the discharge is submerged about an inch

Basically all i did was exchange the sanitary tees with 90s because i couldn't find the right size ones and drill a hole in the center one for the air line.
then i have 2x 45 fittings at the bottom to bring the water back under the cabinet where the sump is.

What it sounds like, is the water is picking up enough velocity during the vertical drop that when it hits the 45 it's bouncing. Can't be sure of course since the pipe is opaque but the first knuckle seems to be the majority of the noise. Increasing the flow increases the noise as well
 
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Bunnywunny said:
A) no air bubbles at all once it settles down, The open channel pipe has bubbles for a long time before it settles though.
B) the intakes look exactly like the image on your guide page
C) the discharge is submerged about an inch

Basically all i did was exchange the sanitary tees with 90s because i couldn't find the right size ones and drill a hole in the center one for the air line.
then i have 2x 45 fittings at the bottom to bring the water back under the cabinet where the sump is.

What it sounds like, is the water is picking up enough velocity during the vertical drop that when it hits the 45 it's bouncing. Can't be sure of course since the pipe is opaque but the first knuckle seems to be the majority of the noise
Click to expand...

Without knowing your flow rate......

For most purposes, the smallest practical "durso" or "open channel", aka air assisted standpipe, is 1.25" on a 1" bulkhead. With a 1.5" on a 1.5" bulkhead, you may expect to have problems beginning at ~ 350 gph. The flow that can be expected with a 1" (open channel standpipe) would be ~ 50 gph. For a 3/4" open channel, it would be horribly low. These numbers are just approximations, based on reported problems.

Siphons perform, with little consideration (other than capacity) to pipe size, so a 1/2", 3/4", 1", etc. will all perform, and perform well. Other than capacity of the siphon, the only other consideration should be how easily will a given size become plugged. Open channels, on the other hand won't.

The small bulkheads (3/4"?) are a problem. Increasing the size of the pipe on your open channel would probably solve the issue. At 3/4", the siphon may be over-sized, however the open channel is undersized. 1" may do it. Or, you may need 1.25"--hard to say.

Without 1" bulkheads, a modification to the design criteria, I would try to lower the flow in the open channel. May not be easy to do. A gate valve on the siphon, would be of great help. By opening the valve on the siphon a hair at a time, you can probably tune the noise out of the system. You may end up with 1 gallon per hour through the open channel, but it may be silent.......
 
Was unaware there was a minimum requirement like that. It's such a minor trickle I'm amazed there isn't enough allowed airflow. Only running about 200gph from the pump
The flow in the the open channel pipe is already so low that it's like water dripping from a stalagmite in a cave 1-2 second you hear an echoing high pitched "bloop"

Can you recommend a good site to get the pieces? I assume if I remake it with the proper sized and already tried piping having a couple bends in it to reach the sump will be fine? Breaking an aquarium is probably a cheaper alternative to breaking my sanity anyways.

At this point I'll probably be putting my bigger than a 3g mentally challenged blind frog tank project on hold till after christmas but make sure i get it right at least

edit: Just wanted to make sure you all know I appreciate the help very much. There is absolutely no air bubbles coming from the bottom and the water level stays incredibly stable and there's no sucking or gurgling sounds at all. Just the dripping sound, almost want to try putting padding on the center tube to see if it muffles it
 
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I've been reading this thread for a couple months. I want to set this up exactly as the original design with 1 change: 1.5" bulkheads.

If the weir is set 1" beneath the top of glass, How far down should the hole centers be? In my current drawings, I have the hole centers 4" down from the top edge and 5" apart.

Going 1.5" bulkheads to 1.5" pipe: Will I run any risk of startup issues?

Thanks,
Adam
 
What is your target flow rate? The 1" bulkhead design has a very wide bandwidth. The only reason to up the size of the bulkheads, is to hit higher GPH, with a relatively short drop. There are some other criteria, but lets start there.
 
I'm building a 178 gallon (66x26x24) DT with 60 gallon sump. It will be stocked primarily with SPS. I'm therefore shooting for 10x system volume. That puts us well over 2000 gph. I figured the 1.5" bulkheads would be necessary that way I can back the syphon off to desired flow.

The pump is reeflo snapper/dart hybrid.

I appreciate the help.
 
1.5" it is. Before you cut your holes, have the plumbing in hand, and actually measure to get your dimensions/clearances.
 
The 1.5" bulkheads will be fine for your setup.... That said, you will need significantly more flow for the display. Do you plan on a closed loop or stream pumps?
 
Forgive the OT post, but for google's sake, here is a low profile outlet.

side.png


bottom.png
 
From a PM: (note: please don't PM me questions, it is too much work to manage the thread and PMs.)

Hello, I am planning a new tank, it will be a 220 gal with an internal overflow so plumbing coming from bottom of tank, what size piping would you recommend and will your design work for my application since its not exiting out the side like your diagram?
Thanks
Shelby
Click to expand...

Not sure why you want an "internal" overflow plumbed through the bottom of the tank, but the physics and operation of the design are not affected. The design (as published) is capable of a wide range of flows. What is your proposed return pump?
 
BeanAnimal said:
Not sure why you want an "internal" overflow plumbed through the bottom of the tank...
Click to expand...

It's probably because he wants to avoid having the plumbing visible on the outside. Even though its behind the tank, it takes up space and forces the aquarium ensemble to be placed away from the wall to accommodate that plumbing. On larger systems utilizing 1.5"+ PVC, a significant amount of space would be needed away from the wall.

Of course, the downsides to all internal plumbing would be more difficult access to such plumbing for cleaning and maintenance, as well as more internal tank space used for the full height overflow compartment, but not any more so than existing "reef ready" tanks with internal overflows drilled at the bottom.

I went with an external overflow but will be building false sides to extend the tank's front-to-back depth in order to conceal the back plumbing. The stand and canopy will also be increased to accommodate this deeper setup.
 
Exactly:

You buy a 24" deep tank and take up 6" of it to build an internal overflow box, leaving about 18" if depth and the ability for it to hug the wall. The balance valve, and associated plumbing are crammed under the stand....

You buy an 18" deep tank and build the system, as designed (internal or external box) and move the tank 6" or so out from the wall.

You end up with the same useable space in the tank, but avoid drilling the bottom (mishap drains entire tank) and gain access to the important bits of plumbing.

There are certainly valid reasons, but I would avoid the internal-through-the-bottom if at all possible :)
 
1.5" bulkheads

1.5" bulkheads

BeanAnimal said:
The 1.5" bulkheads will be fine for your setup.... That said, you will need significantly more flow for the display. Do you plan on a closed loop or stream pumps?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. I plan on at least 2 mp40's.

It will be the Dart for the return with 2" PVC and very little head pressure (It appearsaround 6 ft from every calculator I've used.) I even called reeflo.

If you have an alternate idea for my display flow, fire away.

Thanks again,

Adam
 
mr bean you made my day. I had two 1.5" bulkheads gravity draining into tees down then flex line into a drain manifold which split the flow between a fuge and a sump.. sounded like a kid blowing milk through a straw. I redid it to mimic your system. I reduced one of the 1.5 bulk heads to 1" pvc and made that the siphon. I then kept the other 1.5 " bulkhead the same size and made that the overspill. No back up drain. as the tank was alraedy in place and full i couldnt drill another hole.

but the tank is silent now.. every time i go to the basement i run over to make sure it is still running. Now i just have to silence those pesky tunzes
 
Can anyone tell me how big to make my overflow box? I have a 65 gal 48x18x17 and was wondering if I could make the box not as long as the entire tank and not have flow issues?
 
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