Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[Eud]

just a quick pic of a 75 gallon i am working on.

i went with a internal external overflow for aesthetics, don't want to see a bulky overflow in the tank, this will help with rock-scaping as well.
the internal is off center by 1 inch, too lazy to fix it. not that A**L!

This tank has both 1 inch drain holes and returns.
the back of the stand will be extended to both support the 1.5 inch drains and to hide the plumbing from side view like i did with my 40 gal.

That looks really nice. How big did you have to make that box on the rear of the tank? Looks like maybe a 1" one on the inside and a 6" one on the outside?

 

[the_deeb]

A quick question (I apologize if this has already come up somewhere in this thread and I missed it):

Would it feasible to run a beananimal-style overflow using vinyl tubing rather than PVC pipe? i.e. barb connections to switch to tubing right after the bulkhead Ts and then another barb connection at the base of the plumbing close to the sump to be able to incorporate the ball/gate valves. Is there any reason this wouldn't work?

 

[Eud]

I'll presume to try to answer. Barbed fittings will greatly decrease the cross section you have to drain through and produce a choke point with a corresponding lower max flow rate. The material doesn't affect the flow much, though. The vinyl tubes have a tendency to curl up and stuff, so depending on the length of your runs you'd have to make sure you didn't accidentally end up with a trap (an uphill portion), but avoid that, make sure your barbs don't constrict the flow too much for your desired flow and it seems like you'd be fine. This says nothing about the long term desirability of using barbs, and if they leak, or whatever.

 

[nemosworld]

That looks really nice. How big did you have to make that box on the rear of the tank? Looks like maybe a 1" one on the inside and a 6" one on the outside?

actually it's 1.5 inch internal and 5 inches external.
the center hole will be the emergency. no elbows just straight pvc.

 

[nemosworld]

I'll presume to try to answer. Barbed fittings will greatly decrease the cross section you have to drain through and produce a choke point with a corresponding lower max flow rate. The material doesn't affect the flow much, though. The vinyl tubes have a tendency to curl up and stuff, so depending on the length of your runs you'd have to make sure you didn't accidentally end up with a trap (an uphill portion), but avoid that, make sure your barbs don't constrict the flow too much for your desired flow and it seems like you'd be fine. This says nothing about the long term desirability of using barbs, and if they leak, or whatever.

+1 and also vinyl cost way more than pvc.

 

[Eud]

actually it's 1.5 inch internal and 5 inches external.
the center hole will be the emergency. no elbows just straight pvc.

So you doing the full siphon with a bare bulkhead, the open channel with a midpoint pipe and the emergency with a pipe up to the edge of the weir? Would this be more prone to vortex and then sucking in air?

 

[nemosworld]

So you doing the full siphon with a bare bulkhead, the open channel with a midpoint pipe and the emergency with a pipe up to the edge of the weir? Would this be more prone to vortex and then sucking in air?

no, i am sticking to the design, just the center pipe will be straight pipe, the open channel and full siphon will have tee's and the air line.

 

[Eud]

no, i am sticking to the design, just the center pipe will be straight pipe, the open channel and full siphon will have tee's and the air line.

Ah, now I get what you said. Just the emergency is straight. Makes sense.

 

[Eud]

So does anyone have any input on downsizing just the main siphon to 1" instead of 1.5" as a way of helping the siphon get started given my diagonal section of drain?

My idea is that the higher water velocity of the narrower pipe at a given flow rate will help to remove the air quicker and get the siphon started faster.

Even though I'm a nuclear engineer and should know things about bubbly flow and film flow and slug flow and turbulence I'm appealing to experience instead of my own trial and error.

 

[uncleof6]

So does anyone have any input on downsizing just the main siphon to 1" instead of 1.5" as a way of helping the siphon get started given my diagonal section of drain?

My idea is that the higher water velocity of the narrower pipe at a given flow rate will help to remove the air quicker and get the siphon started faster.

Even though I'm a nuclear engineer and should know things about bubbly flow and film flow and slug flow and turbulence I'm appealing to experience instead of my own trial and error.

It is so much simpler than all that: The system works as designed, for a very wide range of flows, with no starting issues. It is to be expected that it will take a few minutes for the system to settle in at start up, however the dry emergency kicks in, so it creates no problem, unless you adjust it wrong, or have made some other implementation errors. It is not necessary to understand the physics that make this work. The only time physics needs to be brought up, is when folks mess it up, and can't figure out why. Explaining why something won't work is far more complicated.

The theme of this thread and design, is a one-size-fits-all solution, that is simple to implement, if you can follow the simple instructions. 1" bulkheads, 1.5" pipe. 1.5" bulkheads, at lower flow rates could be a problem. 1.5" bulkheads should be reserved for pushing 2000 gph + with a relatively short drop.

 

[Eud]

It is so much simpler than all that: The system works as designed, for a very wide range of flows, with no starting issues. It is to be expected that it will take a few minutes for the system to settle in at start up, however the dry emergency kicks in, so it creates no problem, unless you adjust it wrong, or have made some other implementation errors. It is not necessary to understand the physics that make this work. The only time physics needs to be brought up, is when folks mess it up, and can't figure out why. Explaining why something won't work is far more complicated.

The theme of this thread and design, is a one-size-fits-all solution, that is simple to implement, if you can follow the simple instructions. 1" bulkheads, 1.5" pipe. 1.5" bulkheads, at lower flow rates could be a problem. 1.5" bulkheads should be reserved for pushing 2000 gph + with a relatively short drop.

I get that this system works as designed and as BeanAnimal posted. No one would say it doesn't at this point. However, I think 5000+ posts on this thread are not about a system that people want to implement exactly as designed. They're about people who for one reason or another don't have or don't want the exact setup that BeanAnimal posted on. If they did, each answer would just be "see above."

In my case, that difference from BeanAnimal's set up is that I don't want the sump directly under the stand in my living room. I want it in the utility side of my basement where there are floor drains and way more room for things like a bucket full of deep sand bed, and ATO reservoirs, and the list goes on.

In order to get it there I need a much lower sloped section of pipe than BeanAnimal's design called for. This is already is a modification to the design that might just break it if I follow the rest of it as posted. My guess was that I might be able to make up for that with a higher velocity in a narrower pipe. That's the problem, that "might be able" there. I was asking if someone knew enough about flow to say if it would help compensate for the shallow slope to have narrower lines.

 

[Eud]

Actually, I reread what I wrote, and it sounded terse, when that wasn't really my intent.

I'll start from a default of making as few mods to BeanAnimal's design as I can get away with and just see how it runs. Then I'll be able to see if it works and change things from there. So I'll do the 1.5" pipe with my 10 degree drop and see what happens.

I talked to the engineer at work who does our creative things with flow, and he says that there is no reason ever to size the pipe down. He gives the analogy that my skinnier pipe theory is like trying to wire my house for electricity without circuit breakers, but using skinnier wiring as a fuse and thinking that's going to make it safer.

Maybe someone who has run a BeanAnimal overflow can confirm how it acts at startup, but he says that with a valve at the bottom the pipe will fill from the bottom up and the air will mostly come out the top of the pipe as it flows and begins to transition to a full siphon, not be flushed out into the sump like I was theorizing. Then it's just a matter of whether or not the pipe fills with water and starts draining faster before the water level rises enough to land on my living room floor and a larger pipe will only help with that.

He also had a problem with a drain that had the upper opening fully submerged and not going over the top of the tank being called a "siphon." He wanted to call it a submerged drain, and said it's not a siphon, it's a waterfall with a pipe around it. Semantics.

 

[uncleof6]

Actually, I reread what I wrote, and it sounded terse, when that wasn't really my intent.

I'll start from a default of making as few mods to BeanAnimal's design as I can get away with and just see how it runs. Then I'll be able to see if it works and change things from there. So I'll do the 1.5" pipe with my 10 degree drop and see what happens.

I talked to the engineer at work who does our creative things with flow, and he says that there is no reason ever to size the pipe down. He gives the analogy that my skinnier pipe theory is like trying to wire my house for electricity without circuit breakers, but using skinnier wiring as a fuse and thinking that's going to make it safer.

Maybe someone who has run a BeanAnimal overflow can confirm how it acts at startup, but he says that with a valve at the bottom the pipe will fill from the bottom up and the air will mostly come out the top of the pipe as it flows and begins to transition to a full siphon, not be flushed out into the sump like I was theorizing. Then it's just a matter of whether or not the pipe fills with water and starts draining faster before the water level rises enough to land on my living room floor and a larger pipe will only help with that.

He also had a problem with a drain that had the upper opening fully submerged and not going over the top of the tank being called a "siphon." He wanted to call it a submerged drain, and said it's not a siphon, it's a waterfall with a pipe around it. Semantics.

Yes, well maybe someone that has run this system will chime in.

 

[Eud]

haha. I'll do mine entirely out of clear PVC and fill it with dyed water so I can make a video showing folks how it starts up.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I'll start from a default of making as few mods to BeanAnimal's design as I can get away with and just see how it runs. Then I'll be able to see if it works and change things from there. So I'll do the 1.5" pipe with my 10 degree drop and see what happens.

You may be missing part of the context (harping on "as designed").

There are an infinite number of ways to create a well functioning, reliable system. Given a set if criteria, it is reasonable that a "better" system could be engineered. In fact, "my" system as it runs here on my tank could be further optimized. However, the point was to publish something that worked, without the need for calculation, tweaking or modification.

We are certainly here to answer questions and help when we can. The problem is that many of the departures from the original design introduce several unknowns that are hard to account for. Sadly and with regularity, folks change the design, get unexpected results and then gripe that the "my" system sucks... Thus the "as published" reminders

I talked to the engineer at work who does our creative things with flow, and he says that there is no reason ever to size the pipe down.

I would not go that far... but in general given the same vertical drop, the shallower the angle from vertical, the more frictional loss you will have due to the longer run of pipe. Longer runs of pipe mean stepping up in size, not down

Maybe someone who has run a BeanAnimal overflow can confirm how it acts at startup, but he says that with a valve at the bottom the pipe will fill from the bottom up and the air will mostly come out the top of the pipe as it flows and begins to transition to a full siphon

Depending on flow, the status of the pipe entrance and exit (free or submerged), etc. Air can easily be trapped in the upper portion of the pipe for a somewhat extended period (even a few minutes) during startup.

The smaller diameter pipe may very well (likely) flush faster (lower volume of air) and therefore sart the siphon faster. There is (again) a tradeoff and several unknowns with regard to overal system flow capacity, startup time, etc. To small, and it can airlock, to large and it may take forever to siphon, or cavitate.

He also had a problem with a drain that had the upper opening fully submerged and not going over the top of the tank being called a "siphon." He wanted to call it a submerged drain, and said it's not a siphon, it's a waterfall with a pipe around it. Semantics.

Not so much a problem of semantics but rather of lay understanding, as the Bernoulli principle applies to both the same. Getting folks to understand that the static head + the friction head is what matters (distance between the pool surfaces + pipe friction). Water "falls" through a siphon at the same rate as anything else affected by gravity (minis any velocity scrubbed off by the friction of the pipe walls).

 

[BigH2OChief]

Return Set-up Preferences?

Return Set-up Preferences?

Through research and study I have a grasp on how to (silently) flow water to my sump. It's the getting it back to the DT which now perplexes me.

That said... out of curiosity:

Q1) In-line or Submersable Return Pump, and why?

Q2) Straight return only (or if the pump's GPH allows) 'T' off suplemental flow to the Fuge, and why?


Thanks in advance- MW

 

[nemosworld]

Q1) submersable if you do not have space for external, external if you have an sump and can drill the sides for the plumbing. internal if you have a DIY glass sump.
last thing you want to do is have a glass sump with a hole on the side for an external pump and bump it during maintenance and crack it.

q2) This depends on your pump size, and the amount of flow you will desire.
I tee off to the fuge to reduce the amount of pumps used in my system, also to reduce heat and the electric bill. also it's one less thing i have to plug in.

 

[sabbath]

Does it matter if the drains go straight down without Any 45's? I'm thinking of sliding the sump all the way back and under the the external box.
Thanks

 

[baharcourt]

Our siphon is not siphoning on its own. We just started up the system and everytime we shut it off we have to prime the siphon. Any ideas?

 

[aus996]

Okay, so I have a bean animal overflow currently running on a 2 foot cube, its a bit of a test subject for my larger 'in the planning stage' tank. Mine is working well so i hope this helps out someone else seeing what I have set up.

Can you modify it... sure..to a point.. but you will need to retune it.

Its been highlighted before but there are a few critical factors to this set up in the tuning stage which, when you get them dialled in, lead to effortless operation. For me it took about 15 minutes of fluffing about and that was it, done . But again mine at the moment is about as straight forward as you can get.

If you are brand new to the set up i found it really helps to watch the system start up a few times to try and understand what was happening and in what order, play around with it, plug this line, raise or lower this bit, put a 45 or a 90 bend in siphon line, just to see the effect. I have a much better undertsanding now of what its doing at each stage.


The two return pumps I have had running in this set up have been an eheim 1262 or an OR3500, both at about 3 foot of head so you can do the calc on what sort of flow its pushing into the tank. I think the OR may have had a bit better flow as I tweaked the valve on the main siphon just slightly more open.

I have the siphon bulkhead (1 inch) located 10mm lower (than the standbye pipe) in the wier and the standbye with a 1 inch bulkhead and 1 inch pipe (for both of them) dropping straight into the sump, the dry emergency is 1.25 inch bulkhead and 1.25 inch pipe which dumps on a slight slope (but still straight piece of pipe) into the sump.
Only have one ball valve on the system which is on the primary siphon.

It takes about 45 seconds from start up to settle, the dry emergency kicks in for about 15 seconds at the beginning as the wier tops up. The standbye goes into full siphon for about 15 seconds and then breaks as the wier empties really quickly - by this time the main siphon is at full run and everything settles down
I have the ball valve on the primary siphon every so slightly closed and a trickle running down the standbye pipe. Its starts every time.

For the standbye pipe siphon hose (the thin line coming out of the top of the tee) I just played around with the location ( ie how deep the end of it was located in the wier) until I was happy with how quickly the standbye pipe enagaged as a siphon and then locked it into place. I think there is an ideal height/location mentioned somewhere but I just played with this until i was happy. I had to get the length of the siphon and standbye pipe correct into the sump, from memory its about 15 mm below the sump water surface (for me anyway) for both primary siphon and standbye (this does make a difference on if/how your siphon starts up)
Im not using sanitary tees just oridinary ones.

I know bugger all about fluid dynamics, etc. but I found the system easy to set up and tune, the main website for the bean animal was critical as well as notes and comments form this forum. Its about the only thing I have been able to set up from go to whoa that has actually worked first time around:bounce1:

You can modify the set up for sure, but you will just have to re-tune it according to your requirements, just dont skip over some of the fundamental basics of the set up or ir just won't work.

If you can, set it up in its basic format (drain it into a tub or something:worried so you know you have a working sytem in an ideal environment, and then change on thing at a time as you modify it to fit your set up.

Be sure to go through the whole start up and shut down procedure as well as simulate blockage of 1 and two pipes each time you make a mod so you know the primary operational reason (ie failsafe) still exists on your modified bean animal set up.

Most of all, have a bit of fun with it, experiment and see what you can get to work for you:fish1: