Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[uncleof6]

When going with the minimal dimensions of the overflow is there a point where you will run into more problems with vortexes? I know I can get away with my box being 5"tall x 3.25" deep atm. I can cut down some fittings to shave more but thought I'd ask about the vortex issue before I even considered cutting down the fittings. I understand you need to be able to remove the elbows/bulkheads and work in the box.

Minimum dimensions is not really a good idea, things such as friction losses within the overflow can interfere with system performance, just as friction losses in the pipes. You are not gaining anything other than inconvenience, by using minimum dimensions... Some think that minimal dimensions will improve lighting in the tank, well...the way light behaves in water, makes this not such a significant thing, even if you see something of a shadow; not too mention, there should not be anything in the part of the tank in the shadow anyway...stuff piled up against the back wall interferew with circulation in the tank. (Just looking at one thing that comes up with this sometimes)

 

[Kyle918]

I am redesigning my bean animal on my 75 gallon. I am going with the overflow on the back end.

My question is, with the original BA setup, the bulkheads were 1inch bulkheads going to a bushing that opened up to 1.5 inch diameter. Now that the overflow will be located on the back of the tank, the bulkheads will be at the base of the overflow. Is it acceptable to still use the same 1 inch bulkheads to a bushing to open it up to 1.5? Or would it be best to buy a new bit and new larger bulkheads to keep the diameter 1.5 through the bottom panel of the overflow box?

 

[Dotterer]

Kyle, I can't tell you if it would be *best* - but I can tell you that when I built my overflow, I used 1.5" all the way, and it works great.

 

[uncleof6]

I am redesigning my bean animal on my 75 gallon. I am going with the overflow on the back end.

My question is, with the original BA setup, the bulkheads were 1inch bulkheads going to a bushing that opened up to 1.5 inch diameter. Now that the overflow will be located on the back of the tank, the bulkheads will be at the base of the overflow. Is it acceptable to still use the same 1 inch bulkheads to a bushing to open it up to 1.5? Or would it be best to buy a new bit and new larger bulkheads to keep the diameter 1.5 through the bottom panel of the overflow box?

There have been *some* reports of starting issues when using 1.5" bulkheads, and 1.5" pipe at lower flowrates. Unless you are planning on flow rates above 1400 or 1500 gph, you would probably be better off with 1" bulkheads. A close examination of the "whys" of this particular issue has not been done, as it is impractical to test everything, not too mention costly. This starting issue could well be due to something other than the bulkhead size. The best practice, unless needing higher flow rates, is to build this as designed in particular detail.

 

[Kyle918]

Kyle, I can't tell you if it would be *best* - but I can tell you that when I built my overflow, I used 1.5" all the way, and it works great.

I have had the system completely set up and it worked perfect with the 1inch bulkheads as per the main diagram. The siphon started in seconds as well once tuned properly. My only complaint was that water draining into the sump was noisy and I had lots of bubbles, the overflow itself was silent and the siphon, as well as the open channel, were quiet...it was just once it fell into the sump. I assume my issues were air leaks, combined with me connecting the open channel and siphon channels, AFTER the ball valves though. I also had horizontal runs under the tank to reach certain areas of the sump, but these horizontal runs were after the valves from the siphon and open drain so I am unsure if that affected the noise in any way. The siphon started flawlessly in this configuration but I really need the sump noise gone as this tank is in my living room and the water noise would drive me insane, plus I listen to a lot of music and it would interfere take away from that enjoyment.

I would like to use my existing bulkheads but I am concerned about the noise of the water flowing vertically through the open channel, into a smaller diameter, then back to a larger one...I feel that that would cause the water to not stick to the sides of the pipe and instead free fall, causing noise. I am also unsure how the siphon would behave.

 

[uncleof6]

I have had the system completely set up and it worked perfect with the 1inch bulkheads as per the main diagram. The siphon started in seconds as well once tuned properly. My only complaint was that water draining into the sump was noisy and I had lots of bubbles, the overflow itself was silent and the siphon, as well as the open channel, were quiet...it was just once it fell into the sump. I assume my issues were air leaks, combined with me connecting the open channel and siphon channels, AFTER the ball valves though. I also had horizontal runs under the tank to reach certain areas of the sump, but these horizontal runs were after the valves from the siphon and open drain so I am unsure if that affected the noise in any way. The siphon started flawlessly in this configuration but I really need the sump noise gone as this tank is in my living room and the water noise would drive me insane, plus I listen to a lot of music and it would interfere take away from that enjoyment.

I would like to use my existing bulkheads but I am concerned about the noise of the water flowing vertically through the open channel, into a smaller diameter, then back to a larger one...I feel that that would cause the water to not stick to the sides of the pipe and instead free fall, causing noise. I am also unsure how the siphon would behave.

See previous post. Noise in the open channel is strictly controlled by the adjustment. When adjusted correctly, there won't be any noise in the open channel. The flow in the open channel is a small fraction of the total flow, if you get noise, readjust the system. I suggest the use of gate valves rather than ball valves, as the adjustment can be more closely controlled.

 

[Kyle918]

See previous post. Noise in the open channel is strictly controlled by the adjustment. When adjusted correctly, there won't be any noise in the open channel. The flow in the open channel is a small fraction of the total flow, if you get noise, readjust the system. I suggest the use of gate valves rather than ball valves, as the adjustment can be more closely controlled.

Ok, I like that answer. I will use the same bulkheads I previously used then. As far as noise from the sump goes, will adjusting the setup as I indicated above solve my sump noise issues? I had the drains about a half inch beneath the surface of the water. The water level was constant.

 

[uncleof6]

Ok, I like that answer. I will use the same bulkheads I previously used then. As far as noise from the sump goes, will adjusting the setup as I indicated above solve my sump noise issues? I had the drains about a half inch beneath the surface of the water. The water level was constant.

Horizonal runs will affect the open channel by creating turbulence, which behaves much the same as too much flow in the open channel. Keeping the lines as straight up and down as possible will help a great deal. However, the biggest issue was connecting the siphon and open channel. You can't do that and expect a good result. Connecting the two turns both into little more than dursos, bubbles noise blah blah. Set up properly, the system will be silent, and you will complain about the noise from the skimmer and return pumps....

 

[Kyle918]

Horizonal runs will affect the open channel by creating turbulence, which behaves much the same as too much flow in the open channel. Keeping the lines as straight up and down as possible will help a great deal. However, the biggest issue was connecting the siphon and open channel. You can't do that and expect a good result. Connecting the two turns both into little more than dursos, bubbles noise blah blah. Set up properly, the system will be silent, and you will complain about the noise from the skimmer and return pumps....

I figured that was where I went wrong noise wise. Well, I will have this all redone this weekend and I will test it and comment back. I probably will complain about the pump next. I have the Waveline 4000 and the DC motor whine is a bit more than I was expecting. I was pushing it a little more than halfway, just before the 5th light turned on. The tunze are dead silent of course.

 

[uncleof6]

I figured that was where I went wrong noise wise. Well, I will have this all redone this weekend and I will test it and comment back. I probably will complain about the pump next. I have the Waveline 4000 and the DC motor whine is a bit more than I was expecting. I was pushing it a little more than halfway, just before the 5th light turned on. The tunze are dead silent of course.

The Waveline DC pumps are good pumps however.

 

[Kyle918]

The Waveline DC pumps are good pumps however.

So far I would have to agree. It has great flow and uses a fraction of the power the Eheim 1262 I originally planned for would. 80W vs 36W for the Waveline.

Thank you again for your help uncleof6. Much appreciated!

 

[shoggoth43]

Ok. I've gotten through all this and I don't think I've seen the answers to what I'm looking for.

I've got an Eshoppes HOB overflow now. Yes, I know. Boo Hiss. It's currently setup as a Herbie style overflow with both bulkheads facing upward and one has a standpipe in it. I have both running into 1.5" pipe/bulkheads and then reduced down to 1" vinyl tubing ( the kind with the reinforcement mesh ) and a ballvalve ( just inside the sump ) on the one without a standpipe closed down a bit so there is a slight trickle of water over the taller standpipe. Flow is under 1000 GPH and probably under 750. When I start the system the air purges very quickly with that rising frequency noise like filling a bottle of water in the sink since the top of the full siphon pipe is not covered in any way. Basically like pouring water down a funnel into a tube. No air is sucked in during operation as there is about 5" or so of water above the bulkhead and a slight trickle over the standpipe. This trickle is sometimes noisy and annoying, but more often the noise I hear is from the internal overflow box with water trickling through the teeth.

I plan on replacing this with a partial or full C2C internal/external overflow setup. There will not be any bulkheads from the inside of the tank to the outside.

So, questions I have...

If I use 1" holes, say three or four, at the bottom of my new partial/full C2C, how many would I need for that kind of flow? I plan on setting the water levels to keep them submerged to reduce splashing. I have no problem with larger holes if that makes sense.

Does the "vertical" pane of the C2C overflow need to be vertical or would angling it out slightly be helpful?

Do I need two pieces of glass for the C2C or would a single larger 6" strip of glass angled out be feasible? Maybe the two piece design helps with reinforcing the back of the tank?

Outside box:

I will use 1.5" bulkheads facing upwards. The full siphon may have a reducer in it to drop it down to 1". I may also do the same at the bottom of the full siphon pipe and use a 1" gateway valve instead of using a 1.5" valve. There will be no standpipe or other elbows at the top of the pipe. As the current system is already doing this I do not anticipate any problems with vortices but I could throw some eggcrate over the top of it if necessary to eliminate them.

The dry emergency will probably also be a full open top standpipe. This is already being done now and I don't see that it will cause any major issues.

The open channel pipe would be a change from what I have now. Is the durso style tube and airtube necessary or can it just be an open standpipe as well? Would using the durso style reduce any echoing or trickle noise that I currently encounter?

I may rethink the outside box idea but I think part of the reason I've not had many problems with purging this is just that the top is not sealed and that the valve is in the sump so there's little chance of an air bubble getting trapped anywhere. The outlet is ~6" under the waterlevel in the sump usually. That would probably need to change somewhat.

Thoughts?

-
S

 

[andyl9063]

i got mine up and running without any issues.

A few quirks I have or need clarification on.

Am i suppose to hear water running into the standpipes? Its not super quiet, but not loud. I hear the water running into the standpipe from the overflow box. Is it suppose to be dead silent?

The standpipe terminate at the sump just below water level, if its 1 or 2 inches below water level, does this affect anything?

Also, what does adjusting the full siphon channel with valve do?

One thing people who starting to do this should really do a longer overflow that extends the whole tank. I know it was in the instruction, I went with a 20 inch box while my tank was 72" long. There's noise of water coming into overflow, but that was my fault.

 

[andyl9063]

i got mine up and running without any issues.

A few quirks I have or need clarification on.

Am i suppose to hear water running into the standpipes? Its not super quiet, but not loud. I hear the water running into the standpipe from the overflow box. Is it suppose to be dead silent?

The standpipe terminate at the sump just below water level, if its 1 or 2 inches below water level, does this affect anything?

Also, what does adjusting the full siphon channel with valve do?

One thing people who starting to do this should really do a longer overflow that extends the whole tank. I know it was in the instruction, I went with a 20 inch box while my tank was 72" long. There's noise of water coming into overflow, but that was my fault.

i went back and reread the whole setup guide and i found my answers.
thanks.

 

[smb2415]

I want to give a huge THANK YOU to Uncleof6 and BeanAnimal for their advice and keeping this thread alive!! I realize keeping up with this thread seems to be an endless task however your assistance has helped me tremendously. My original post for assistance was in #5824. It works exactly as stated - silent and safe - and I was able to see all three overflows function at various points. Again, thank you.

For those of you considering this solution, I'm a newbie and was weary about drilling my tank, taking out the existing finger weir and installing a new coast-to-coast. I am convinced I selected the best possible overflow, the Bean Animal Overflow. Take your time, layout it out correctly and triple check prior to drilling. Take the time to read the first 20 pages or so to familiarize yourself. The time and minor expense associated with this solution is well worth it. Drilling was the worst part - it is time consuming and worrisome. I recommend taping both side of the glass or if possible clamp a piece of wood to the inside. Plan on spending some time taping and applying the silicone for the overflow. Do some research about how to silicone glass so you don't get bubbles in your seams.

I have a 550g DT and used 2" sch80 PVC for this. With this system I am able to run my Reeflo Hammerhead wide open - full on - with 1" return outlets and the 2" pvc overflow is nowhere near maxed out. In fact, at this setting it looks like Niagra Falls in the tank and the overflow looses full siphon! It quickly siphons again but only momentarily. I would need a gas powered trash pump to max this thing out. It took me about 5-10 minutes to figure out a reasonable setting and while adjusting I was able to see all three pipes function as designed. I haven't installed the open channel vent yet but and it still works great. I was too impatient to wait for the part. Even without the parts it starts flawlessly within a few seconds - no adjustments or manual intervention required. I couldn't be happier!

Thank you


for those interested here are some pics of my bean animal design and build (not yet completed).

<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/o5ss.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/849/o5ss.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" border="0"/></a>
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[Kyle918]

Good afternoon,

I have one last question, I think, before I cement my plumbing together. I have a skimming section and a refug section in my sump. In relation to water noise, will splitting the siphon drain, after the ball value of course, cause any turbulence that would result in noise? A description of my original plumbing configuration is quoted by Uncleof6 in post 6451 at the top of this page. IF it is preferred that I have each drain run separately, then I certainly can do so and figure another way to feed the refug. My concern is noise. Sorry if this was asked and answered before but the more I read, the less I see anyone that splits or talks about splitting the siphon drain, after the valve, to feed multiple chambers within the sump.

 

[SGT_York]

First to do a horizontal run you will need more precise control than a ball valve will allow, get a gate valve.

Secondly if you are determined to split your drains why not have the open channel go directly to your refug, and the siphon to your skimmer? Flow can be adjusted with a gate valve to a degree, you won't get more than a few ~100 GPH through the open channel but it should be sufficient for a refug.

 

[Kyle918]

First to do a horizontal run you will need more precise control than a ball valve will allow, get a gate valve.

Secondly if you are determined to split your drains why not have the open channel go directly to your refug, and the siphon to your skimmer? Flow can be adjusted with a gate valve to a degree, you won't get more than a few ~100 GPH through the open channel but it should be sufficient for a refug.

I decided to go a bit more extreme and change the layout of my sump slightly. In the end I think it will be easier to plumb the drains to match the original design, all three running to the skimming chamber. I will also have a larger return section. I may still decide to run the open channel to the refugium as SGT_York said; it would be very easy to do so. I will have a bare bottom fug so if the open channel is needed in an emergency the refugium can handle the flow.

 

[uncleof6]

I decided to go a bit more extreme and change the layout of my sump slightly. In the end I think it will be easier to plumb the drains to match the original design, all three running to the skimming chamber. I will also have a larger return section. I may still decide to run the open channel to the refugium as SGT_York said; it would be very easy to do so. I will have a bare bottom fug so if the open channel is needed in an emergency the refugium can handle the flow.

Running the open channel into a different area (read different water level) is not advised, it can mess with the dynamics of the system. All the lines should run into the same section of the sump. The Dry emergency is an exception, and generally I run it into the return section. All equal configuration, and identical, thusly:

There is not enough flow through the open channel, to serve a "fuge" and if there is, then the flow through the open channel is too high.

Also, the type of valve has no effect on horizontal runs. Horizontal runs can and do cause starting issues (trapping air.) Hence, horizontal runs are not recommended for use with siphon systems, irregardless of the type of valve used. Gate valves only accomplish more precise control, they do nothing else.

Setup the system as designed, and do not get carried away with ifs, maybes, and inaccurate information. This system works as designed. That is the only 'warranty' there is.

 

[Aslmx]

I have a 210 gallon build going with the bean animal system. My question is what size pump will I need. Can I get by with like a mag 9.5