Silent and Failsafe Overflow System
- Thread starter JohnL
- Start date
Cbsailor11
New member
mmn- looks good to me
SGT- sounds like time for another tank!
SGT- sounds like time for another tank!
Mrramsey
NEO Reefer
Ok let me rephrase my question...
I have a 72g bowfront with a beananimal c2c. The original owner had started this and I early continued it to finish. The bulkheads are schedule 80 3/4". The drains are all 3/4" as well. It functions fine but I wonder if I am giving up some performance. When I start to increase my flow the secondary drain starts to really bubble which I think will be a problem when I make the switch to saltwater. Will I see a gain in performance if I increase the pipe to 1.25" or 1.5"?? Just a guess but I estimate the current flow to be stable at 500gph. Am I making too much of this? Like leave well enough alone or am I going to have issues with saltwater.
I don't think it is feasible to try and re-drill the bulkheads to fit a 1". I am afraid I would risk breaking the tank. I really like the tank but maybe I should just buy a 120 rr and call it a day lol.
I have a 72g bowfront with a beananimal c2c. The original owner had started this and I early continued it to finish. The bulkheads are schedule 80 3/4". The drains are all 3/4" as well. It functions fine but I wonder if I am giving up some performance. When I start to increase my flow the secondary drain starts to really bubble which I think will be a problem when I make the switch to saltwater. Will I see a gain in performance if I increase the pipe to 1.25" or 1.5"?? Just a guess but I estimate the current flow to be stable at 500gph. Am I making too much of this? Like leave well enough alone or am I going to have issues with saltwater.
I don't think it is feasible to try and re-drill the bulkheads to fit a 1". I am afraid I would risk breaking the tank. I really like the tank but maybe I should just buy a 120 rr and call it a day lol.
SGT_York
New member
How closed is your siphon valve? The bulkhead size doesn't matter if the valve is 10% closed or more. The valve should be the constraining feature of the system. If your valve is fully open and not able to handle enough flow then increasing the valve size alone may assist, as even fully open a valve is a significant reduction in internal diameter. If enlarging the valve still doesn't give you enough flow then the bulkhead is near certain to be your limiting factor. Go with the valve first because it may work but if not it will be used after you drill the larger hole anyway.
I'll keep the experimental plumbing in other poor saps homes. No reason to overcomplicate the system if you do not need to. In the previous case their existing plumbing wasn't working so his wife requested an improvement to silence it.
One day I'll be done with my moving every few years and I'll get a nice 180 in wall with fish room, maybe then I'll be satisified. Until then I'll keep hauling my rocks from state to state.
I'll keep the experimental plumbing in other poor saps homes. No reason to overcomplicate the system if you do not need to. In the previous case their existing plumbing wasn't working so his wife requested an improvement to silence it.
One day I'll be done with my moving every few years and I'll get a nice 180 in wall with fish room, maybe then I'll be satisified. Until then I'll keep hauling my rocks from state to state.
Mrramsey
NEO Reefer
I have the main siphon fully open as is the trickle drain. I have my return wide open to the tank and am adjusting the flow by setting the head pressure relief (1/2" line returning back to the sump from the pump). I did a test and closed the trickle drain 100% and the main siphon plus the emergency drain handled the flow at its current rate. So I believe the system is draining at the maximum rate just fine. If both primary and secondary drains were blocked it would probably be trouble but the likelihood of that seems remote short of never maintaining the system.
Is there an easy way to calculate how much actual flow is going through?
I just ran a simple test. I have my sump graduated in 1 gallon markings. I turned off the return and approximately 2.5 gallons drained back into the sump. I started the pump and did a very scientific count (one thousand 1, one thousand 2) until the sump was back to its operating level. I counted to 10. that's 15 gallons per minute and 900 gallons per hour. Now I am sure I am off a little but even if it was 2 gallons that would be ~720 GPH. Does this sound right? mind you that this is running at the maximum safe level that the system can handle with one drain clogged.
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uncleof6
Active member
Just a few comments: You should increase the bulkheads to 1" as you contemplated earlier. 3/4" plumbing presents far too much friction loss, and is far too easy to plug up. Also the mag drive pumps require 1.5" outlet pipe to get anywhere close to flow curve performance. This is stated in the directions for the pump. If you are not using the pump at its optimum, it is pretty much a waste, though I don't recommend danner pumps for our purposes.
The coast to coast, like it or not, is the most efficient design there is, and it can't be beat. The size is what it is, and is a small sacrifice for the gains in system health acheived with high performance surface skimming.
The open channel (what you call the "trickle drain") should always be fully open, and does not need—therefore should not have, a valve in it.
You are not relieving head pressure by using a return line to the sump. The "lift" portion of the equation, is from water level in the sump to water level in the tank, and it does not change. What you are doing by using the bypass is adding friction loss, which increases the total dynamic head on the pump, and therefore decreasing the pump output. In reality, this is a waste of the pump.
It is very VERY unlikely that you are flowing 900 gph through the system, assuming the head height is around 24". At 36" drop your odds would be better....but with the friction loss in 3/4" pipe, the odds are not great. So whether that sounds right, or not, isn't answerable—without the head height, and some other information.
Max theoretical flow through 3/4" bulkhead is ~937 with a 24" drop, and ~1150 with a 36" drop. This is not accounting for friction loss, ambient pressure, temperature, density blah blah. The actual flow rate will be somewhat less, once the pipe, fittings, and valves are added
No, there is no easy way to calculate the flow through the system. The best you can do with even very complex calculations, is get "close." The great and powerful Nemo, created a device for taking most the guess work out of this, and that is called a flow meter. Installing a flow meter in the return line will give you the most accurate measurement of the flow rate through the system. For custom system building, the flow meter is an essential piece of equipment.
If you are daring, you can use weir calcs to get a reasonably close measure of what is flowing through the system. Since the flow through the system is equal at all points, it does not matter where you determine the flow rate, and the weir calcs are probably the easiest to handle, sans a flow meter. (weir is the top edge of the overflow...) A weir is a device specifically intended for use in measuring flow rates. Blah, blah, blah...
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Mrramsey
NEO Reefer
Thanks for explaining that. So this morning I ran the calls for flow at the weir. And that result put me at ~700gph given a 3/16" depth at the weir across 47.5" of the length. @1/8" depth that gives ~550gph.
That being said I feel pretty confident that I am at 625gph respectively. So still at roughly 10x tank volume. I dialed the flow back down from the max I did yesterday.
I do agree that the pump is way overkill. This was actually my first sump system and was relying heavily on input from others. I was originally thinking mag9.5 or mag12.
All of this being said, this is currently a freshwater setup. I am switching to saltwater and may or may not keep the bow-front. I think it is far to small of a footprint for a mixed reef let alone lighting issues but that's another story. I am thinking of switching to a 90 at an minimum and possibly a 120 and building a new bean overflow.
So for the sake of putting the information out there. 3/4" bulkheads should give adequate flow on a 72g. On this particular setup I am not going to risk trying to redrill the bulkheads for 1".
That being said I feel pretty confident that I am at 625gph respectively. So still at roughly 10x tank volume. I dialed the flow back down from the max I did yesterday.
I do agree that the pump is way overkill. This was actually my first sump system and was relying heavily on input from others. I was originally thinking mag9.5 or mag12.
All of this being said, this is currently a freshwater setup. I am switching to saltwater and may or may not keep the bow-front. I think it is far to small of a footprint for a mixed reef let alone lighting issues but that's another story. I am thinking of switching to a 90 at an minimum and possibly a 120 and building a new bean overflow.
So for the sake of putting the information out there. 3/4" bulkheads should give adequate flow on a 72g. On this particular setup I am not going to risk trying to redrill the bulkheads for 1".
SGT_York
New member
120 is a great sized tank! C2C bean overflow is a perfect choice.
3/4" is adequate but does increase the risk. You will get better flow by going to a 1" gate valve leaving the remaining pipe in place.
Have you tried stopping the siphon to ensure the emergency and open channel will handle all the flow
3/4" is adequate but does increase the risk. You will get better flow by going to a 1" gate valve leaving the remaining pipe in place.
Have you tried stopping the siphon to ensure the emergency and open channel will handle all the flow
Mrramsey
NEO Reefer
SGT- yes with my current setup flowing as much as I can without a lot of air bubbles in the open channel I can close one of the channels and still safely operate without overwhelming the emergency channel. I have had this tank running for about a year without any issues. Like I said before this was started by someone else. When I got the tank 99% of the materials were there. I just assembled it. Looking back I would have certainly added the 1.5" valves and pipe to the sump.
I may still upgrade it if I decide to keep it as a fowlr tank.
I may still upgrade it if I decide to keep it as a fowlr tank.
I'm planning on using a bean animal overflow on my new tank to keep noise down. The display is an in-wall tank with very limited access around the external weir so I was wondering if the operation of the syphon is impacted if I install the ball value about 800mm below the weir, near the syphon outlet into the sump? (rater than installing the ball value near the weir)
Hi guys,
Trying to trouble shoot my bean animal overflow, but having a problem with the siphon drain. Everything is air tight and sealed well as far as the air line tubing is concerned. I'm pretty sure it is anyway. When the air line tubing is submerged in the water, the flow rate of the siphon does not increase into a full drain (far right). The pipe leading into the sump from the siphon is barely submerged maybe a quarter inch in the sump. Here are pictures to help. 1.5 inch PVC with a 900 gph return pump if that helps at all.
Please HELP!!!!
Build Thread: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2366164
Trying to trouble shoot my bean animal overflow, but having a problem with the siphon drain. Everything is air tight and sealed well as far as the air line tubing is concerned. I'm pretty sure it is anyway. When the air line tubing is submerged in the water, the flow rate of the siphon does not increase into a full drain (far right). The pipe leading into the sump from the siphon is barely submerged maybe a quarter inch in the sump. Here are pictures to help. 1.5 inch PVC with a 900 gph return pump if that helps at all.
Please HELP!!!!
Build Thread: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2366164
GROSSR
Active member
I could be wrong, but I didn't think the airline tubing was to placed underwater.
On my overflow it is sticking straight up in the air, above the highest point of the water in the tank.
My overflow has been running silent for over a year now, except when a snail decides to take a ride.
rich
On my overflow it is sticking straight up in the air, above the highest point of the water in the tank.
My overflow has been running silent for over a year now, except when a snail decides to take a ride.
rich
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The siphon airline tubing is supposed to be placed in the overflow above the water line so that in case of a clog or something related and the water level rises, the airline tubing becomes submerged turning the siphon channel into a full drain. If I'm not mistaken.
When my tubing is submerged, my flow rate doesn't change at all. Siphon channel is wide open.
dirtycontour
New member
I have my airline placed above the emergency drain. It does not get wet during start up. Try to raise the airline up some.
uncleof6
Active member
Hi guys,
Trying to trouble shoot my bean animal overflow, but having a problem with the siphon drain. Everything is air tight and sealed well as far as the air line tubing is concerned. I'm pretty sure it is anyway. When the air line tubing is submerged in the water, the flow rate of the siphon does not increase into a full drain (far right). The pipe leading into the sump from the siphon is barely submerged maybe a quarter inch in the sump. Here are pictures to help. 1.5 inch PVC with a 900 gph return pump if that helps at all.
Please HELP!!!!
Build Thread: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2366164
What I see, in looking over your build thread:
1) You have the siphon feeding the skimmer, and the open channel feeding the fuge. This is somewhat incorrect, as under normal operating conditions, there is insufficient flow through the open channel (when the system is adjusted properly) to support flow requirements for a fuge (which are higher than myth and legend would have you believe eg. full tank flow is not a bad idea.) Both the siphon and open channel, due to the interaction between them, should drain into the same body of water, to avoid head pressure differences, hence operation under certain conditions, eg. the siphon and open channel should both drain into the same section of the sump. Feed the fuge with a branch from the return pump.
2) You have a gate valve, and a ball valve in the siphon line? Why? Only the gate valve is needed, the ball valve being just a waste of money.
3) In order to test the operation of the open channel, both the siphon and dry emergency must be shut off. Although you can shut off the siphon, I see no means to shut off the dry emergency, therefore the open channel will not 'increase' its flow rate, when the air vent line is submerged, becasue the flow is being shared with the dry emergency.
4) I would: swap the positions of the dry emergency and the open channel, and configure the drain lines to be as nearly identical as possible. You have a lot of supurfluous 45s in the lines that could easily be eliminated, making it less likely that there be an air leak, and reduce the friction losses in the lines. Also the ball valve should be removed, it is just another restriction in the drain line. Temporarily attach the ball valve to the dry emergency to give the open channel a test for proper operation.
Placement of the air vent line inlet: the inlet should be above the normal operating water level of the overflow, and higher than the inlet to the dry emergency. If the vent inlet is too low, the entire system will not function properly. The open channel is a system self-adjust mechanism, and it is not intended, nor should it be used to feed another section of the sump. The only time the open channel should "trip to siphon," is in the event of a complete occlusion of both the siphon and dry emergency, and water level rises in the overflow to submerge the air vent line inlet.
At this late date, with the system in live operation, it is surprising that you did not discover the system does not operate as you expected. The drain system should be thoroughly tested before putting the system in full operation. It works as designed 100% of the time, but after interperative adaptation, it might not.
1) I have always read that flow through a fuge should be very slow. The amount of flow going through the open channel seems to be a lot for a fuge as it is running now. Also, wouldn't the head loss difference be so extremely minimal it wouldn't matter?
2) The only purpose of the ball valve is to be able to remove the filter sock. We could have done the same thing with a union valve, but we couldn't find any at the hard ware store. It is always open.
3) I don't quite understand what you mean here. When I tested the open channel I shut off the siphon. The dry emergency elbow is pointed upwards above the level of the siphon and open channel. The airline tubing is placed above the water level, but below the elbow of the dry emergency line. The water level never reaches the emergency valve because the 1.5 inch pvc on the open channel seems to be enough to handle the return rate of the sump pump. However, it never increases flow rate once the air line tubing is submerged which is why I am perplexed.
4) The 45's are needed to make the pipes flush with the stand so that they may be supported with brackets. So I believe what you are saying is that the open channel should trip to siphon only after the emergency dry pipe fails. Wouldn't it work both ways?
uncleof6
Active member
Slow flow through a fuge turns it into a garbage dump. Especially if feeding it directly from a drain line.... Also the line of thinking that brought about "flow through a fuge should be very slow" is utter nonsense. Many folks seem to think that the longer the "contact" time in the fuge, the better. Simply nonsense. The only place contact time is of any concern is inside the body of the skimmer.
Head loss (friction loss) is never minimal. Some would like to ignore this factor, but it will bite them every time. The flow capacity of a drain line is not determined by the pipe diameter it is determined by the smallest diameter in the line... usually the bulkhead, but in many cases it is a ball vavel, union, or other supurfluous fitting in the line.
Don't need a valve to remove a sock....it is just another failure point waiting to fail.
The reason for your perplexed condition is because you are not understanding how the system is designed to work, and you have not set it up properly. The air vent line inlet is too low in the overflow, so the entire system is not operating as designed or properly. Air vent line inlet too low in the overflow is #4 reason, behind pipe outlets too deep in the sump, air in the siphon line, and horizontal runs, for the system to not work properly.
Support the pipes as they pass under the stand, that will eliminate the unnecessary fittings.
Yes, the open channel should only trip to siphon if the main siphon, AND the dry emergency fail.
No the system does not function correctly both ways. With the vent line too low, at system start up, rather than purge ALL the air out of the siphon line, the open channel trips and takes more flow than it should. When this happens, the siphon never fully starts, and you get "a lot of flow through the open channel," just as you are.
What should happen, as has been gone over hundreds of times, is this:
1) System starts
2) Water level rises in overflow
3) Air starts to purge from the siphon line.
4) Water continues to rise
5) Dry emergency starts taking flow
6) Air purges completely from siphon line
7) Water level in overflow drops suddenly, and system goes silent—siphon has fully started
8) Dry emergency stops flowing
9) At this point, adjust the gate valve so water level in the overflow rises so the open channel just starts to flow some water.
10) When adjusted properly, the open channel will not have enough flow to support a fuge.
Basically the issue with your drain system is twofold: The air line inlet is too low, and the system is not adjusted properly. That is the short version.
Long time bean animal user with a question abotu horizontal runs
Long time bean animal user with a question abotu horizontal runs
I have a bean animal set up on a 2 foot cube which has been running faultlessly for over 2 years now.
I am looking at a new additonal tank system, a 5 footer, so much bigger and I am currently tossing aorund ideas for the sump.
One of the options would require a horizontal run of about 4 feet on the primary drain line but my concern is that this is moving away from the intial concept that i know works flawlessly (and this is when problems arise):hmm5:
is there anyone running a bean animal successfully with a short horizontal run? ( vertical drop is only about 2 feet from main tank to sump) and if so what where the issues you had tuning it ( if any)? thanks:spin3:
Long time bean animal user with a question abotu horizontal runs
I have a bean animal set up on a 2 foot cube which has been running faultlessly for over 2 years now.
I am looking at a new additonal tank system, a 5 footer, so much bigger and I am currently tossing aorund ideas for the sump.
One of the options would require a horizontal run of about 4 feet on the primary drain line but my concern is that this is moving away from the intial concept that i know works flawlessly (and this is when problems arise):hmm5:
is there anyone running a bean animal successfully with a short horizontal run? ( vertical drop is only about 2 feet from main tank to sump) and if so what where the issues you had tuning it ( if any)? thanks:spin3:
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