Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[ilikefish34]

Uncleof6 - I'll have to find that 1.25" on-line because home depot and lowes didn't carry anything under 1.5" for their sanitary tees.

Thanks again
Mike

 

[uncleof6]

I'm planning a basement sump/refugium.

Since it will require a horizontal run, I'm assuming a different overflow design is required, e.g. herbie. Is that correct?

Are there other types recommended for basement sumps with horizontal runs?

Thx.

No that is not the point of the discussions on horizontal runs. Horizontal runs in drain lines, cause turbulence problems in any style drain system (and there are only two: open channel and siphon) and horizontal runs trap air. Both of these conditions affect open channel drains by exacerbating the already poor performance of them, and affect siphon systems by airlocking them. (inability to purge all the air from them, and therefore, they will not form a siphon.)

Horizontal runs are to be avoided. Angled down @ 45° is the target and is optimal; generally angled down is less functional, but still "works." What is befuddling is building a custom system, then settling for anything that is less than optimal. Fish rooms are nice to have, but much of the time, it is impractical, unless you have an engineer around...

Engineers make good money designing this sort of thing. Residential and commercial drains systems are always open channel, and always angled down. Building codes require it. Public aquariums have very complex plumbing systems. It would be great if the physics changed because you need a fishroom, 10, 20, 30 foot away. Unfortunately they won't; using a different drain design won't help. Drains work on acceleration due to gravity. No gravity.... ooopsss.....

 

[acesq]

Since this post appears in part to be directed at me, allow me to explain why I did what I did, that others have successfully done the same, and to encourage others to think a bit outside of the box to achieve their optimal system within the constraints of their homes.

What is befuddling is building a custom system, then settling for anything that is less than optimal.

This is exactly why I chose to have a horizontal run -- I wanted an optimal custom SYSTEM. To achieve this, I was not able to have an optimal siphon drain COMPONENT. I would not let that tail wag the dog. After some thought, I was able to design a siphon drain that achieves all of my drain component goals: drain water from my tank to my remote sump reliably -- restarts every time; safely -- cannot cause a flood even if the power goes out or the drain clogs; and quietly (this is the one downside of the horizontal run --due to the risk of trapped air, some adjustment may occasionally be necessary to achieve this). Let me be clear, if I followed the 45 degree rule, I would not have a 340 gallon tank in my house.
.
.
.
And still be married.


I think I chose wisely. Perhaps you would go with no tank at all?



Engineers make good money designing this sort of thing. Residential and commercial drains systems are always open channel, and always angled down. Building codes require it. Public aquariums have very complex plumbing systems. It would be great if the physics changed because you need a fishroom, 10, 20, 30 foot away. Unfortunately they won't; using a different drain design won't help. Drains work on acceleration due to gravity. No gravity.... ooopsss.....

Both commercial and residential drain systems use long horizontal runs. In fact, the uniform building code minimum slope slope for drains is only 1/4" per foot of run. Perhaps you selected a bad example here, since neither type of construction make much use of siphon drains, but the physics of your example is not on point. Water runs downhill, even when the hill is very slight.

While your larger point that siphon drains can become choked under certain conditions by trapped air is valid, your rigid adherence to the "rules" makes you unwilling or unable to even consider that work-arounds are commonly and safely employed when design constraints preclude the perfect drain construction. Gravity IS necessary for sure. But I have plenty of it with a 6' initial drop before a gently sloping 30' of horizontal, a couple of sweep els up 6-10 inches to the side wall of my sump. I have not done the math (and have no idea what the calculation is), but is it even possible to have an airlock in a 1.5" pipe with a 30' horizontal run and 6' of head pressure? I can say it has never happened in my system after 50-100 restarts. But even if it did, as I explained, with my design there is no chance of "ooopsss".

If you want an engineered example of a custom tank with horizontal drain runs look no further than Ching Chai. I consulted with him before deciding to take the risk of including a horizontal run in my drain. His system seems to be working just fine.

I'm not suggesting people run out and put their sump a good distance from their tank. The Bean Animal is exactly what its advertised to be: silent and failsafe. I am suggesting that if you have to, you can skin the cat another way with a little thoughtful planning.

 

[uncleof6]

Since this post appears in part to be directed at me, allow me to explain why I did what I did, that others have successfully done the same, and to encourage others to think a bit outside of the box to achieve their optimal system within the constraints of their homes.

The post is directed at anyone that cares to read it. It continues to maintain the theme and intention of this thread which is to provide solid advice that works 100% of the time, the first time. It is consistant, and reliable.

And still be married.


I think I chose wisely. Perhaps you would go with no tank at all?

I am not a marriage counselor.:eek1: Perhaps it is not a good subject for this venue. But since you asked, I wear the pants in this household. The front door is clearly the way out. :bum:

Both commercial and residential drain systems use long horizontal runs. In fact, the uniform building code minimum slope slope for drains is only 1/4" per foot of run. Perhaps you selected a bad example here, since neither type of construction make much use of siphon drains, but the physics of your example is not on point. Water runs downhill, even when the hill is very slight.

I never said either type of construction uses siphons (they do not at all) rather they are open channel. I think that was pretty clear.

Well water certainly won't flow up hill except at Knott's Berry Farm...(of course the Nile River flows the wrong way...) It is called acceleration due to gravity. Gravity makes things flow "downhill" So I don't see the problem with what I said. Commercial and residential drains do not use horizontal runs, they use runs that are angled down, that is not horizontal, is it... it is an excellent example because you described it exactly as a horizontal run. Semantics? Not hardly. Advice needs to meet the needs of those that can't tell the difference.

While your larger point that siphon drains can become choked under certain conditions by trapped air is valid, your rigid adherence to the "rules" makes you unwilling or unable to even consider that work-arounds are commonly and safely employed when design constraints preclude the perfect drain construction. Gravity IS necessary for sure. But I have plenty of it with a 6' initial drop before a gently sloping 30' of horizontal, a couple of sweep els up 6-10 inches to the side wall of my sump. I have not done the math (and have no idea what the calculation is), but is it even possible to have an airlock in a 1.5" pipe with a 30' horizontal run and 6' of head pressure? I can say it has never happened in my system after 50-100 restarts. But even if it did, as I explained, with my design there is no chance of "ooopsss".

And where is the conflict? I think that what has you upset, is the inflexibility. The fact is that I give consistent advice, which is the whole point, that gives 100% functionality, 100% of the time, and I am inflexible with that advice. WE know, by a great deal of experience, that horizontal runs interfere with the operation of this drain system, and every other drain system. Which is why the consistent advice is do not run it horizontal, rather angled down, with 45° being optimal (straight down being the best.) That is the way it is. We can keep going back and forth, but that is not going to change anything.

If you want an engineered example of a custom tank with horizontal drain runs look no further than Ching Chai. I consulted with him before deciding to take the risk of including a horizontal run in my drain. His system seems to be working just fine.

And I have been doing this for 35 years...and have two engineering degrees. (A bachelors and a masters...) I have also worked with large public aquariums, Birch and Smithsonian being two of note.

I'm not suggesting people run out and put their sump a good distance from their tank. The Bean Animal is exactly what its advertised to be: silent and failsafe. I am suggesting that if you have to, you can skin the cat another way with a little thoughtful planning.

No you are not, however, you are not following what I am saying very well, due to my inflexibility, no doubt. I am not saying anything here, that has not been said before, and repeated by many. You are right though there are a thousand ways to skin a cat; 995 - 999 of them dont work. bean's system is exactly what it is represented to be, and we intend to keep it that way, with solid consistent advice. The results of inconsistancy are very apparent with the 'herbie' modified siphon system, and most other topics in the aquarium hobby.

How an individual implements this, or any other system, is entirely up to them. The solid information is there, in fairly easy to understand terms. If the system does not work, it is entirely their fault. I would rather see 100 people have a system work right the first time, and catch some flack by proponents of 'everything works,' rather than give, or condone, inconsistent advice"”I know will not work every time, and have 1 system fail.

Also, you may wish to read more carefully, as the depth of our "disagreement" is not as deep as you seem to think.

 

[SGT_York]

acesq,

There are many possible solutions to implementing a successful horizontal run, but the Bean Animal thread is not the appropriate place to discuss, propose your ideas in a new thread and we can discuss that there. Leave this post for implementing the specific standard BA system.

Best of luck,

 

[Mrramsey]

Uncleof6 - I'll have to find that 1.25" on-line because home depot and lowes didn't carry anything under 1.5" for their sanitary tees.

Thanks again
Mike

FWIW - It might be hard to find a 1.25 sanitary tee. You'll be fine with a standard tee. I did mine in all 1.25. Very negligible noise if any at all. I certainly cant hear any even putting my ear up to the tee.

 

[acesq]

acesq,

There are many possible solutions to implementing a successful horizontal run, but the Bean Animal thread is not the appropriate place to discuss, propose your ideas in a new thread and we can discuss that there. Leave this post for implementing the specific standard BA system.

Best of luck,

I agree that Bean cautions against the use of horizontal runs, so they technically are not part of his system. Note however that my initial comments were directed to a question raised in this thread regarding whether horizontal runs could successfully be implemented in a Bean Animal system. I, along with others, responded to this. Further, there are tons of posts in this thread about changing one or another part of the system so I'm not quite sure why its not appropriate to discuss this particular change, but you're the boss. :wave:

 

[SGT_York]

Simply to keep this thread to the implementation of his system,

You can run a BA with horizontal runs it just needs some engineering which is outside the scope of this thread. Any deviations should be in their own thread. Makes for searching much easier.

 

[uncleof6]

I agree that Bean cautions against the use of horizontal runs, so they technically are not part of his system. Note however that my initial comments were directed to a question raised in this thread regarding whether horizontal runs could successfully be implemented in a Bean Animal system. I, along with others, responded to this. Further, there are tons of posts in this thread about changing one or another part of the system so I'm not quite sure why its not appropriate to discuss this particular change, but you're the boss. :wave:

No, he isn't, but that is irrelevant..

You have not implemented a horizontal run successfully. You have not implemented a horzontal run. You are contradicting yourself, often in the same sentence.

This is what I said, early on, and have been saying for a very long time:

"Horizontal runs are to be avoided. Angled down @ 45° is the target and is optimal; generally angled down is less functional, but still 'works.'"

The contradiction: example: "a gently sloping 30' of horizontal,"

The very simple definition of horizontal is: Parallel to the horizon. Parallel means: equidistant at all points along a given line. Horizontal is 90° from vertical, or perpendicular to vertical, or perpendicular to the force of gravity; gravity of course is vertical.

A pipe with a gentle slope, or a code compliant drain with a 1/4" slope per foot, is not a horizontal run. That 1/4" per foot is ~14° down from horizontal. It is "generally angled down," and your "gently sloping" is "generally angled down."

The problem is not in presenting alternatives, some work some don't. The problem is pursuing a debate with a basic misunderstanding of what the debate is about, or not understanding the definition of the term(s) being used.

This is an open forum, and it is wrong to suggest anyone "take it somewhere else." Anyone is welcome to post in this thread, just keep it on topic, if at all possible; "horizontal runs" are on topic, because they do affect the performance of drain systems. This thread is very specific though: As designed works, modifications may or may not work. This is not inflexible, it is specific. Consistancy, is the only way to insure the quality of information. The advice given, will continue to be consistant; the information/advice given will provide good results, 100% of the time.

 

[acesq]

No, he isn't, but that is irrelevant..

You have not implemented a horizontal run successfully. You have not implemented a horzontal run. You are contradicting yourself, often in the same sentence.

This is what I said, early on, and have been saying for a very long time:

"Horizontal runs are to be avoided. Angled down @ 45° is the target and is optimal; generally angled down is less functional, but still 'works.'"

The contradiction: example: "a gently sloping 30' of horizontal,"

The very simple definition of horizontal is: Parallel to the horizon. Parallel means: equidistant at all points along a given line. Horizontal is 90° from vertical, or perpendicular to vertical, or perpendicular to the force of gravity; gravity of course is vertical.

A pipe with a gentle slope, or a code compliant drain with a 1/4" slope per foot, is not a horizontal run. That 1/4" per foot is ~14° down from horizontal. It is "generally angled down," and your "gently sloping" is "generally angled down."

The problem is not in presenting alternatives, some work some don't. The problem is pursuing a debate with a basic misunderstanding of what the debate is about, or not understanding the definition of the term(s) being used.

This is an open forum, and it is wrong to suggest anyone "take it somewhere else." Anyone is welcome to post in this thread, just keep it on topic, if at all possible; "horizontal runs" are on topic, because they do affect the performance of drain systems. This thread is very specific though: As designed works, modifications may or may not work. This is not inflexible, it is specific. Consistancy, is the only way to insure the quality of information. The advice given, will continue to be consistant; the information/advice given will provide good results, 100% of the time.

So there is a rank higher than sargeant!! Awesome. :dance: I appreciate your willingness to engage in a discussion about the efficacy of horizontal runs in Bean Animal systems and agree that it is appropriate here. SGT_York, I don't expect we will be at this much longer, Uncleof6 and I are far more in agreement than disagreement.

To your point, it seems to me that you changed the debate from "45 degree runs or nothing" to "14 degree runs are not horizontal and therefore do not violate the rule". I find this ironic given your comment about pursuing a debate with a misunderstanding of what the debate is about.

Actually, you appear to have abandoned the actual debate whether horizontal runs (which clearly in the context of the debate include close to horizontal runs) can be implemented in a siphon drain system such as the Bean Animal to attempt to show that I have not successfully implemented a horizontal run. The more intellectually honest response would be to simply admit that with sufficient planning "horizontal runs" can work. This planning includes properly over-sizing the pipe to the flow, providing significant vertical drop to allow for the purging of trapped air at the sump end as well as the drain end, allowing room in the tank to handle the volume of the sump return compartment in the event of a total clog of the siphon and open emergency(ies), and allowing room in the sump to handle the volume of the tank/pipe overflow in the event of a power outage.

Here are three points to consider in reevaluating your conclusions that "gently sloping" is not "horizontal" and that I have not done what I believe I have (aren't I the optimist?): (1) I am no mathematician, but isn't 1/4" per foot 3.75 degrees from horizontal, not 14? (2) Regardless of the correct calculation, while I did not dig the trench or install those pipes myself, I did see them before they were covered and I can assure you that they are well closer to horizontal than 14 degrees and while I asked that they try to slope them downward a bit, they likely might actually meander a degree or two upward in places. And, (3) wouldn't you agree that the physics of the airlock issue change little if the slope is 0 degrees or 3.75 degrees or even 14 degrees? Given these, what I have is horizontal for purposes of our discussion.

Your final point is right on, consistency works, 100% of the time. I hope I've been clear that I would not have done what I did if I was not prevented from putting a sump right below my tank. But I did, because I had to, and it works.

 

[GoldeneyeRet]

I want to send a big thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread, especially uncleof6 and Mrramsey. My 120 rebuild is running quietly, smoothly and leak free out in the garage as I type.

Thank you for all the help.

 

[Mrramsey]

I want to send a big thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread, especially uncleof6 and Mrramsey. My 120 rebuild is running quietly, smoothly and leak free out in the garage as I type.

Thank you for all the help.

Glad it all worked out. do you have a build thread?

 

[uncleof6]

So there is a rank higher than sargeant!! Awesome. :dance: I appreciate your willingness to engage in a discussion about the efficacy of horizontal runs in Bean Animal systems and agree that it is appropriate here. SGT_York, I don't expect we will be at this much longer, Uncleof6 and I are far more in agreement than disagreement.

To your point, it seems to me that you changed the debate from "45 degree runs or nothing" to "14 degree runs are not horizontal and therefore do not violate the rule". I find this ironic given your comment about pursuing a debate with a misunderstanding of what the debate is about.

Actually, you appear to have abandoned the actual debate whether horizontal runs (which clearly in the context of the debate include close to horizontal runs) can be implemented in a siphon drain system such as the Bean Animal to attempt to show that I have not successfully implemented a horizontal run. The more intellectually honest response would be to simply admit that with sufficient planning "horizontal runs" can work. This planning includes properly over-sizing the pipe to the flow, providing significant vertical drop to allow for the purging of trapped air at the sump end as well as the drain end, allowing room in the tank to handle the volume of the sump return compartment in the event of a total clog of the siphon and open emergency(ies), and allowing room in the sump to handle the volume of the tank/pipe overflow in the event of a power outage.

Here are three points to consider in reevaluating your conclusions that "gently sloping" is not "horizontal" and that I have not done what I believe I have (aren't I the optimist?): (1) I am no mathematician, but isn't 1/4" per foot 3.75 degrees from horizontal, not 14? (2) Regardless of the correct calculation, while I did not dig the trench or install those pipes myself, I did see them before they were covered and I can assure you that they are well closer to horizontal than 14 degrees and while I asked that they try to slope them downward a bit, they likely might actually meander a degree or two upward in places. And, (3) wouldn't you agree that the physics of the airlock issue change little if the slope is 0 degrees or 3.75 degrees or even 14 degrees? Given these, what I have is horizontal for purposes of our discussion.

Your final point is right on, consistency works, 100% of the time. I hope I've been clear that I would not have done what I did if I was not prevented from putting a sump right below my tank. But I did, because I had to, and it works.

Yeah, I did not convert from foot to inches...

 

[PufferGhoti]

greeting from quebec...

greeting from quebec...

doing a "classical' BA if I can... got all the bits but have use Std 1.5" Tee from availability... would love to put the sanitary 1.5" in the game but tried all chains Home depot/lowes(ontario)/rino/reno/ace hardware/ BMR/ homeware stores multiple pool specialist centers (basicallyy two have) etc...

If anyoneone know a US supllier its either special order (here maybe?) or I get to to various bits of the states every 2 weeks... help me direct the delivery address...

 

[uncleof6]

doing a "classical' BA if I can... got all the bits but have use Std 1.5" Tee from availability... would love to put the sanitary 1.5" in the game but tried all chains Home depot/lowes(ontario)/rino/reno/ace hardware/ BMR/ homeware stores multiple pool specialist centers (basicallyy two have) etc...

If anyoneone know a US supllier its either special order (here maybe?) or I get to to various bits of the states every 2 weeks... help me direct the delivery address...

http://www.wayfair.com/GenovaProduc...KT1081_9405751&device=c&ptid=22071094860&PiID[]=9405751&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=YKT1081_9405751&gclid=CO3Tk7WOl78CFQiUfgodsmEALg

 

[drew2007]

doing a "classical' BA if I can... got all the bits but have use Std 1.5" Tee from availability... would love to put the sanitary 1.5" in the game but tried all chains Home depot/lowes(ontario)/rino/reno/ace hardware/ BMR/ homeware stores multiple pool specialist centers (basicallyy two have) etc...

If anyoneone know a US supllier its either special order (here maybe?) or I get to to various bits of the states every 2 weeks... help me direct the delivery address...

Got mine from here http://flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?&product=PVC-DWV-SanTee

 

[PufferGhoti]

Thanks guys my glass drill bits and bulheads arrived today, it is all coming together nicely.

 

[drew2007]

This one. The first one is not a street el.

http://www.buyhardwaresupplies.com/h...emNumber=48188

Just got these in and they aren't the right ones. They don't slip into a 1" bulkhead. I have to cut 1" pipe to fit it. Will this be an issue? I'm thinking they sent the wrong ones. They look different than the picture.

 

[uncleof6]

Just got these in and they aren't the right ones. They don't slip into a 1" bulkhead. I have to cut 1" pipe to fit it. Will this be an issue? I'm thinking they sent the wrong ones. They look different than the picture.

No it won't be an issue. Could be my bad, but there are street ells that will fit into a 1" socket fitting. The designations for these fittings are rather elusive, but what you are looking for is a 1" spigot (male) with a 1.25" socket, (female.) Have a talk with them, to clarify...using designations such as S x S or S x S x S, or similar is ambiguous, because S can stand for slip, socket, or spigot, and only really tells ya that the joins are solvent weld. T would of course indicate threaded. Terms such as Spigot, socket, are fairly clear, but socket can be misused. MIPT, FIPT are male and female iron pipe threads... Insert is a term often misused as well, but it refers to barbed fittings, nothing else.

 

[drew2007]

No it won't be an issue. Could be my bad, but there are street ells that will fit into a 1" socket fitting. The designations for these fittings are rather elusive, but what you are looking for is a 1" spigot (male) with a 1.25" socket, (female.) Have a talk with them, to clarify...using designations such as S x S or S x S x S, or similar is ambiguous, because S can stand for slip, socket, or spigot, and only really tells ya that the joins are solvent weld. T would of course indicate threaded. Terms such as Spigot, socket, are fairly clear, but socket can be misused. MIPT, FIPT are male and female iron pipe threads... Insert is a term often misused as well, but it refers to barbed fittings, nothing else.

It's no problem. I have the 1"pipe I can cut. Only negative I can see is the c2c will be a touch wider cuz of the extended elbow