Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[samba]

OK. Can I ask for your opinion. Based on all the threads you've read+ experience etc, what is the simplest tried and true method?

If it's small internal overflow with holes drilled in the back pane and normal overflow on back, is there any chance you could post a diagram with all the pertinent measurements...or describe them if easier?

 

[samba]

Based on other threads I have read, I intend to use 1" bulkheads and plumbing throughout as the system is only 50g or so. I was thinking 24" long external x 4" deep x maybe 6" high. I will have the open pipe 1/2" higher than the siphon to make it more stable and less fiddly. Probably full length internal weir 1.5" deep and maybe 4" high? 3 45 mm holes in between weir and overflow box.
So need distance measurements for all crucial parts...any any suggestions?

 

[uncleof6]

This thread is the reference thread for this drain system. It is the only thread, pertaining to this drain system, in which the information is actively maintained to be accurate and consistant.

As far as the open channel being higher than the siphon, this is an unnecessary convention, and is used to mask over other problems with the actual implementation of the system. It can help the system start faster, however, my systems start in under a minute, and systems using this convention start in under a minute...is it worth the effort? Usually the problem is due to a low flow rate using bulkheads that are larger than necessary. 1" bulkheads are all that is required for 350gph up to around 1500gph. (Less than 350gph, don't really need to use this system and a durso will usually work)

The simplest and least problematic all around is an internal C2C with the plumbing out the back of the tank, 3 holes, just the plumbing behind the tank—as designed.

It gets more complicated as more factors are added to the mix. I really don't see any point going beyond the original design, and the internal/external design really does not accomplish much other than adding more pieces to the system. Notching the back and doing an entirely external setup, really does not accomplish much either, other than to increase the cost of the tank.

I made a template for the internal/external setup, quite some time ago, and it has appeared in this thread several times, as well as other threads. It does not indicate a 'short box' for the external. Essentially, you want the internal and external boxes to function as a single body of water: the reason for numerous large holes, and only using the bottom half of the hole. The more channeled the flow, the more friction losses in the system, and the less likely that the internal and external will act as a single body of water. (Dealing with flow through a culvert, rather than a hole/bulkhead with head pressure on it.) Idid a 325 with an internal/external, if I had to do it over, I wouldn't: it really did not make a difference in the final product. The template is for a 120, but the foot difference in length is really not significant.

Unfortunately, Photobucket is acting like a lame duck in traction right now, so I can't post the template...

 

[samba]

Thanks for your help. My display is rather space limited that's why I liked the idea of the external. How about simply drilling 3 1" bulkhead holes in the back wall of the tank, then attach the external box on the outside? I'm aware that surface skimming will be limited, but with all the surface agitation we strive for in reef tanks, is surface skimming really achieving that much anyway? The holes obviously could be covered with egg crate or mesh to prevent strays entering the overflow box.

 

[uncleof6]

Thanks for your help. My display is rather space limited that's why I liked the idea of the external. How about simply drilling 3 1" bulkhead holes in the back wall of the tank, then attach the external box on the outside? I'm aware that surface skimming will be limited, but with all the surface agitation we strive for in reef tanks, is surface skimming really achieving that much anyway? The holes obviously could be covered with egg crate or mesh to prevent strays entering the overflow box.

The surface skimming will not be limited, rather it will be non-existant. Surface agitation mixes the organics back down into the tank, surface skimming is the only thing that takes the organics out of the tank, at a higher concentraton. Agitation also facilitates gas exchange, however surface skimming provides surface renewal. It is a bit more complicated than it seems. Many things going on all at once.

You don't want surface water going back down into the tank. (Not directly by powerheads anyway—again a bit complicated to explain) rather you want more surface water out of the tank, and return water to go to the bottm of the tank, and push the old water up. This pretty much makes most notions concerning power head usage a little left of center. You want organic rich water provided to the skimmer intake, surface skimming provides the highest concentration of organics. This is a bit away from a satisfactory explanation, but it is headed in the right direction.

By the way, a C2C overflow is not taking up any useful space in the tank at all.

 

[Ontheway]

The surface skimming will not be limited, rather it will be non-existant. Surface agitation mixes the organics back down into the tank, surface skimming is the only thing that takes the organics out of the tank, at a higher concentraton. Agitation also facilitates gas exchange, however surface skimming provides surface renewal.

I do not know yet since I did not started the system to see how much my 35 inches coast to coast will help on removal of surface film, or can it remove the oily surface at the opposide end (front-side) of tank, but people with c2c can comment on this I think, how it looks like if you turn off surface agitation devices, and observations on differences in collection levels of PS, with pheads off..

 

[SGT_York]

The point in surface skimming is to get the proteins (surface film) to the skimmer. Powerheads just mix the nutrients back into the display tank water. That is why the C2C is so beneficial, obviously it is pointless with out a good skimmer or nutrient uptake system. Powerheads can be good at moving the surface water from the front to the overflow but don't use them to mix the oils back into the water column.

Even with the overflow external box you still need an internal weir surface skimming is a major plus but water height stability is another major requirement.

The external box really is just an additional risk, The only major improvement is the removal of the startup time..

 

[Ontheway]

The point in surface skimming is to get the proteins (surface film) to the skimmer. Powerheads just mix the nutrients back into the display tank water. That is why the C2C is so beneficial, obviously it is pointless with out a good skimmer or nutrient uptake system. Powerheads can be good at moving the surface water from the front to the overflow but don't use them to mix the oils back into the water column.

Even with the overflow external box you still need an internal weir surface skimming is a major plus but water height stability is another major requirement.

The external box really is just an additional risk, The only major improvement is the removal of the startup time..

Then its best to keep powerhead's head down ! (or straight, at least). From your words, what I understand is, the new-coming Maxspect Riptide powerhead may actually do a really good job for moving things towards the weir without causing much surface agitation, if placed in correct direction and run at correct speed.

 

[SGT_York]

the Riptide certainly shows promise, Not sure how much flow and how much interference from LR there will be, and what the flow will truely be with a return plumbed in as well. I was thinking about mounting one just below the C2C pointing down. leaving a few inches on top. It would need to be low enough so the surface still flows down the weir. One day I'll get my dream 180 up.

 

[DaveMorris]

My 130g has been set up for about three weeks. When I first got water in it, it went silent and ran perfectly in a very short time, maybe a minute or so. Today I shut off the return pump and when I started it back up the drain system would not develop a siphon. Nothing I do seems to make any difference. What are the main reasons for a BA drain system to not develop any flow at all in the siphon standpipe?

I have an external C2C overflow and all plumbing is 1" in the overflow and 1.25" below it.

 

[DaveMorris]

My 130g has been set up for about three weeks. When I first got water in it, it went silent and ran perfectly in a very short time, maybe a minute or so. Today I shut off the return pump and when I started it back up the drain system would not develop a siphon. Nothing I do seems to make any difference. What are the main reasons for a BA drain system to not develop any flow at all in the siphon standpipe?

I have an external C2C overflow and all plumbing is 1" in the overflow and 1.25" below it.

One more thing, once water is flowing into the overflow, if I unscrew the cap on the siphon line it starts draining like a durso. Once I screw the cap back on, it will siphon as it is supposed to. It seems like it just doesn't want to start the siphon on its own. My drain lines are all about 1.5" under the surface of the water in the sump.

 

[uncleof6]

One more thing, once water is flowing into the overflow, if I unscrew the cap on the siphon line it starts draining like a durso. Once I screw the cap back on, it will siphon as it is supposed to. It seems like it just doesn't want to start the siphon on its own. My drain lines are all about 1.5" under the surface of the water in the sump.

Drain lines need to terminate <=1" below the water level in the sump. Fix that, and we can take a look at the rest.

 

[SGT_York]

that water is really high for the siphon to not be running, check it for a clog.

You could also remove the siphon plumbing in the external overflow it is not required. you just need a screen.

 

[uncleof6]

that water is really high for the siphon to not be running, check it for a clog.

You could also remove the siphon plumbing in the external overflow it is not required. you just need a screen.

The water level is not really high for the siphon not to be running...it certainly is not clogged or it would not work after removing the cap! The siphon is being air locked.

Also there is nothing wrong with the way the top end of the siphon is set up. There is no worthwhile reason to modify the intended 'design' of the system. The only time a straight pipe should be considered as an option is if there are space constraints, and at that point one should consider whether they have enough space to implement this system in the first place...

The top end of the siphon in the OP's system, as it is set up, and assuming everything else is done properly, will work just fine. Put very simply, there are no mysterious causes for this system to not work out of the box.

The problem the OP is having has become so common here just recently, that I am beginning to think that folks are not reading the first three pages of the original thread, (first page in particular) which is required reading if wanting this sytem to work out of the box; they are not being linked to the article on Bean's website, if they have questions when first starting out to build this system. These are the only places the design is clearly described and defined, and is correct. The only things missing are the use of 90° elbows and dead horizontal runs, and opinions that have little or nothing to do with the functioning of the system, and only confuse the implementation of a design, that works out of the box—100% of the time, if the design criteria is followed. That is the whole point of this thread: a design that provides a 1 size fits all solution to one of the biggest headaches in the hobby: the drain system. It cannot be considered to be the only solution, but it is a very specific solution.

It is of more benefit, to the folks that do have problems with the implementation of this drain system, that they be linked to this thread, to the first page of the original thread, and/or the article on Bean's website, if the question is asked outside of this thread; 90% of problems can be solved by reading the latter two: a total of two pages. Within this thread the object is to maintain the design, and not allow it to turn into the fiasco that has been the fate of Dursos, Stockmans, Gurgle Busters, DIY PVC overflows, Slit pipe overflows, even Herbie's modification, and numerous others.

The links can be hard to find so here they are:

Bean's website: http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx

First page of original thread: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1310585&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

DaveMorris:

The siphon is air locking. It is best to take a methodical approach to find the solution. Starting with the most obvious, and working on to the less obvious. The most obvious condition is your drain lines are too deep in the sump. Start there, and we can work through the rest...If you haven't already read the information at the two links above, you may find it helpful.

 

[chiroken]

Awesome thread, been reading it off/on for the past year, and have jumped over from the original. A few questions as I'm 100% new to sumps.

How to determine the distance from top of tank to the horizontal centre of the 1" bulkheads in the back glass pane? What is the minimum from the glass edge, I read varying opinions. Does this position affect tank water level? I believe weir height affects tank water level. I want to create an internal box that is as small as possible (height wise). I do not want to see the water line, ever!

Only the syphon standpipe truly needs the ball valve according to page 1. I might use unions on the other 2 and not union valves to save a few bucks. I want to be able to disconnect the 2 tanks. I don't understand where the ball valve is best placed? I will have side-of-tank access so it can go near the top of tank or down lower. Below or at stand height will make it less visible. I plan on having the 3 outlets submerged within the sump as suggested if that matters.

With the elbows in the box that are notched, how high/long do the notches need to be to allow the correct amount of water? By cutting down the 90 and notching I can lessen the height of the internal box. As I"m starting from scratch I can prepare the elbows 1st then build the box to fit 2nd.

I have missed how tall the stand pipes need to be, i.e. , how high are the caps? Is it relative to the water level or the top edge of the tank or what? Why threaded vs. glued, is it to allow access for some reason to the stand pipes?

The tank is a 55g with 17g sump and return pump is a Sicce syncra 3.0. The threaded outlet "nipple" is a single piece that is initially I.D. 3/4" then flares down to 5/8". Should I cut off the 5/8" portion to increase flow/decrease friction? I plan on connecting the pump with 3/4" flex hose (to reduce possible pump vibration noise I"ve read) and then the flex to 3/4" PVC, then T to 2 - 3/4" returns through 2 3/4" bulkheads.

Thank you tons for your answers! I've started the search for all the plumbing parts.

 

[Ontheway]

DaveMorris; I agree with Uncle, experienced the same, though was not aware what was going on, at that time. The water "in" the deeply submerged siphon's outlet side, acts as a plug, the deeper the outlet, the stronger the plug is, so during the initial siphon operation, water coming from tank tries to break this plug by pushing the air trapped inside siphon pipe; If too deep, cannot break the plug and follow the much easier route, which is Open Channel, all water comes from OC and nothing comes from siphon standpipe. I hope Uncle corrects, if Iam wrong.

 

[Drama]

Hey fellas, joining the thread. I have a few noob ish questions regarding plumbing.

1) union ball valves. I bought regular 1 1/2 sh40 ball valves, can I just attach a union right below them instead of using a true union ball valve or should I take them back and purchase true union ball valves? Also a lot of pic that I see only have 1 union ball valve instead of 3, one on each stand pipe. Should I run a ball valve on each stand pipe, I bought 3.

2) can you mix sch40 and sch80 fittings? I was only able to find a 1 1/2" sanitary T in sch80 and blk not white from the local stores, the rest of my plumbing is sch40. Im thinking I should be fine but looking for reassurance. Also, I have noticed in some builds that some people choose a regular T fitting and not a sanitary T fitting. Is running a regular T fitting okay?

3) Gluing it all together. I see some builds where no glue is used, why? Can and should I glue it all up? 1" bulk head to 1 1/2" stand pipes, 125g tank. If so is there a special glue and primer I should be using to make it reef safe?

4) I see that the 1" x 1 1/4" slip pvc street elbow is super hard to find. Would running a 1 1/4 x 1 1/4" street elbow be okay or can I reduce the 1 1/4" x 1 1/4" street elbow with a 1 1/4" x 1" slip bushing and be okay for the overflow? Im thinking of just going 1 1/4" x 1 1/4" no bushing and should be fine? This will be connecting to my 1" bulkheads

Comments and or advice and opinions would greatly be appreciated.
Thanks fellas

 

[uncleof6]

Awesome thread, been reading it off/on for the past year, and have jumped over from the original. A few questions as I'm 100% new to sumps.

How to determine the distance from top of tank to the horizontal centre of the 1" bulkheads in the back glass pane? What is the minimum from the glass edge, I read varying opinions. Does this position affect tank water level? I believe weir height affects tank water level. I want to create an internal box that is as small as possible (height wise). I do not want to see the water line, ever!

Opinions—oh smidgens... There is a minimum safety requirement that states: 1 hole diameter from edges of the glass to the edge of the hole, and from the edges of other holes, edge to edge. This translates to 1.5x hole diameter to the center of the hole, from glass edges, and two hole diameters center to center, from hole to hole. It works out the same, so whichever is easiest to visualize. Use the bottom of the trim lip on the inside of the tank as the reference point.

That being said, it is never going to be that simple. There are other relationships that must be considered: where the top of the weir is placed, the length of the waterfall, and the water level in the overflow. Creating something that is as small as possible is a recipe for things not working right, as evidenced by some of the issues that show up in this thread.

Regardless of minimum requirements/what you can get away with, the nut on the bulkhead needs to clear the trim on the outside of the tank. This will vary from bulkhead to bulkhead. So 1 7/8" down may not clear the trim, and possibly will not allow enough head pressure to get the siphon going.

Using the minimum from the bottom of the lip @ 2 3/4" might get you into trouble, and you will most likely end up ~ 3 1/4" down. This places the top of the weir at the bottom of the trim on the outside (hiding the waterline) and gives ~ a 1" waterfall into the overflow. Much higher than that, and there will be some noise most likely.

Only the syphon standpipe truly needs the ball valve according to page 1. I might use unions on the other 2 and not union valves to save a few bucks. I want to be able to disconnect the 2 tanks. I don't understand where the ball valve is best placed? I will have side-of-tank access so it can go near the top of tank or down lower. Below or at stand height will make it less visible. I plan on having the 3 outlets submerged within the sump as suggested if that matters.

I caution against the use of unions, even union valves, and also against ball valves in general. Unions are simply leaks wanting to happen, and there is seldom the need to disassemble this system, by design, even for maintanence, other than to move the shooting match, but a hack saw does a good job with that, and does not make for possible leak points.

Ball valves, provide a very course adjustment, and are generally for on/off use only. Gate valves give a finer adjustment, and are purpose designed for flow control, which is its job in this system. They are not necessary, but they make life simpler. Save the money by not using unions, and apply those savings to a good gate valve...

On a 'normal' drop, where the valve is located, is not much of a concern. For longer drops, (basement) it is best to have the valve located at the sump. What is good for long drops is also good for 'normal' drops, if that helps you decide at all.

With the elbows in the box that are notched, how high/long do the notches need to be to allow the correct amount of water? By cutting down the 90 and notching I can lessen the height of the internal box. As I"m starting from scratch I can prepare the elbows 1st then build the box to fit 2nd.

Well you need everything else worked out, before you go siliconing up the box anyway... Notching the elbows, is pretty much a waste of time and energy. Place the bottom of the overflow ~ 3/4" below the bottom of the elbows, and don't lose any sleep over it. Again, in terms of space usage, and appearance, the height of the box is irrelevant. It all blends together is a relatively short period of time, rock work, back of the tank, overflow. Wanting the smallest of this or that, is just making things hard on yourself.

I have missed how tall the stand pipes need to be, i.e. , how high are the caps? Is it relative to the water level or the top edge of the tank or what? Why threaded vs. glued, is it to allow access for some reason to the stand pipes?

There is no relevant height for the 'standpipes.' They are relative to the water level in the overflow, not the tank. They will always be higher than the water level in the overflow, and depending on specific parts used, may protrude above the tank. Some choose not to use tees in their quest for the smallest possible assembly, but they rob themselves of the ability to clear problems/clean the drains without disassembling the drain line...which is the purpose of screw on caps. (Sealed with a non-hardening thread sealant, not teflon tape...)

The tank is a 55g with 17g sump and return pump is a Sicce syncra 3.0. The threaded outlet "nipple" is a single piece that is initially I.D. 3/4" then flares down to 5/8". Should I cut off the 5/8" portion to increase flow/decrease friction? I plan on connecting the pump with 3/4" flex hose (to reduce possible pump vibration noise I"ve read) and then the flex to 3/4" PVC, then T to 2 - 3/4" returns through 2 3/4" bulkheads.

Barbed fittings, and 3/4" hose just don't get it done for a marine system. Too restrictive, and too much friction loss, especially for small weak pumps. Think 1" hard pipe, or spa-flex using normal pvc fittings, and run the return (a single is all that is needed) up over the back without adding the additional friction loss/restriction, and expense of more holes, and more bulkheads, and more fittings to run dual outlets.

Thank you tons for your answers! I've started the search for all the plumbing parts.

Design and engineer first, then buy parts. No sense putting the cart before the horse...

Since this is a 55 gallon tank, and most 55 gallon tanks (still are) are made with tempered glass, and you cannot drill or otherwise tool tempered glass. Starting right here, would be a wise move, before investing anything further.

 

[uncleof6]

Hey fellas, joining the thread. I have a few noob ish questions regarding plumbing.

1) union ball valves. I bought regular 1 1/2 sh40 ball valves, can I just attach a union right below them instead of using a true union ball valve or should I take them back and purchase true union ball valves? Also a lot of pic that I see only have 1 union ball valve instead of 3, one on each stand pipe. Should I run a ball valve on each stand pipe, I bought 3.

Unions are unnecessary. The system (if built as designed) is accessible from the top for anything that would otherwise require disassembly. A hack saw works well for moving. Gte valves are a better bet than ball valves. I would not waste the money on tru-union ball valves. Only one valve is needed for this system, so make it a good one...so yes take them back and trade them for a good gate valve...forget the unions...

2) can you mix sch40 and sch80 fittings? I was only able to find a 1 1/2" sanitary T in sch80 and blk not white from the local stores, the rest of my plumbing is sch40. Im thinking I should be fine but looking for reassurance. Also, I have noticed in some builds that some people choose a regular T fitting and not a sanitary T fitting. Is running a regular T fitting okay?

You can mix sch40 and sch80 socket (solvent weld) fittings. It is not recommended to mix sch40 and sch80 threaded fittings. Use one or the other. Since gate valves disassemble for service in situ, you don't need threaded valves or unions. They will still be very reusable, just don't cut the pipe less than 1" from the valve.

The type of tee is irrelevant, however a sanitary tee will make for less turbulence at the top end of the system. You are not going to find them in 1", but sch40 sani tees 1.5" are easily available, though not carried by home depot (they have abs, and that hurts nothing,) but you will have to look online to find sch40 pvc sani tees from Charlotte Pipe and Foundry, Spears, or Lasco. I don't much care for Lasco fittings, and I won't recommend Nibco...

3) Gluing it all together. I see some builds where no glue is used, why? Can and should I glue it all up? 1" bulk head to 1 1/2" stand pipes, 125g tank. If so is there a special glue and primer I should be using to make it reef safe?

Air leaks will destroy the performance of this drain system. Don't do as others do, glue every socket fitting, and glue it well. No special glue required, just thin bodied pvc solvent cement. An transitional glue (avail at home depot) can be used for gluing pvc to abs bulkheads, sani tees if necessary, and is probably preferred.

No primer is needed, and it is in no way required. If your pipe has been buried underground it may provide some advantage. If not don't bother with it.

4) I see that the 1" x 1 1/4" slip pvc street elbow is super hard to find. Would running a 1 1/4 x 1 1/4" street elbow be okay or can I reduce the 1 1/4" x 1 1/4" street elbow with a 1 1/4" x 1" slip bushing and be okay for the overflow? Im thinking of just going 1 1/4" x 1 1/4" no bushing and should be fine? This will be connecting to my 1" bulkheads

Comments and or advice and opinions would greatly be appreciated.
Thanks fellas

These elbows are not that hard to find, and if you look in not so likely places, a problem with Home Depot, you can find them there. Irrigation supply houses are better places to shop for fittings (most carry Spears.)

Aside from that, there is no requirement to run street ells, they do make things simpler though.

You will need to adapt from 1.25" to get through the 1" bulkhead, so you will need to use some type of bushing, or reducing ell. Don't quess on online parts, you may get the wrong one. HD, Lowes, or an irrigation supply will have what you need.

 

[Drama]

Thanks for the help. Thumbs up