Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[chiroken]

That being said, it is never going to be that simple. There are other relationships that must be considered: where the top of the weir is placed, the length of the waterfall, and the water level in the overflow.

So 1 7/8" down may not clear the trim, and possibly will not allow enough head pressure to get the siphon going.

Using the minimum from the bottom of the lip @ 2 3/4" might get you into trouble, and you will most likely end up ~ 3 1/4" down. This places the top of the weir at the bottom of the trim on the outside (hiding the waterline) and gives ~ a 1" waterfall into the overflow. Much higher than that, and there will be some noise most likely.

Thank you uncle for your information. Parts will be hard to source, just trying to track stuff down in advance. Only have purchased bulkheads as that was with a recent online order.

I have checked all 3 of my 55's and 1 is not tempered (the vertical panes anyways), that is the one I'll be working with.

Good advice for the unions, I guess I can always hacksaw and use a coupling if I need to down the road. Also didn't think to make sure the bulkhead nut fits w.r.t. the trim!

I guess where I'm not clear is with the relationship of bulkhead placement, weir height, waterfall length and not having enough pressure to get the syphon going. I can't get my head around how it all comes together.

Is the overflow height based on the position of bulkheads or is it determined a different way?

So I can't just see where the nut clears and place my bulkhead based on that? If not I"m confused as to how it is determined (sorry :sad2 * EDIT: I can't just clear the trim as I am assuming that would put the hole within 1 hole diameter from the edge of the glass so that is what determines where the highest point of the bulkhead can be? Did I get it? lol *

My pump will push approximately 550gph at 4' in a perfect world, not sure how much I'll lose due to friction ect. Its outlet is 3/4". Can I use a bushing and immediately up the diameter to 1" or will that make no difference?

 

[uncleof6]

Thank you uncle for your information. Parts will be hard to source, just trying to track stuff down in advance. Only have purchased bulkheads as that was with a recent online order.

I have checked all 3 of my 55's and 1 is not tempered (the vertical panes anyways), that is the one I'll be working with.

Good advice for the unions, I guess I can always hacksaw and use a coupling if I need to down the road. Also didn't think to make sure the bulkhead nut fits w.r.t. the trim!

I guess where I'm not clear is with the relationship of bulkhead placement, weir height, waterfall length and not having enough pressure to get the syphon going. I can't get my head around how it all comes together.

It is simple actually LOL... Measure down from the lip inside the trim, 3.25" mark the spot, and pop the hole. It sounds more complicated than it is. Water fall will be ~ 1" or so, up to around 1.5" depending on how far you have to go down past the minimum to clear the trim. Water level in the overflow will be in the top half of the down turned elbows, but can vary a little bit, depending on adjustment.

The water needs to rise on startup so it flows in the dry emergency, that is the upturned elbow. That is sufficient to provide enough pressure to start the siphon fully (assuming the bottom end is right.) Some place the bulkheads elbows too high, and getting the head height is risky in terms of overflowing the tank, some place them way too low, and getting the water level up to where the waterfall is not a noisy mess, is next to impossible without breaking the rest of the design.

Is the overflow height based on the position of bulkheads or is it determined a different way?

The top of the weir should be even with the trim on the outside of the tank... hides the water line by ~ 1/4" give or take, depending on the length of the weir, and the flow rate...

The depth (top to bottom) is based on where the bottom of the elbows end up after all of the above is done. 3/4" below that...Start with the top and work down. That is what I am getting at with 'don't plan for smallest possible dimensions you will get in trouble.' It will be however high it needs to be.

So I can't just see where the nut clears and place my bulkhead based on that? If not I"m confused as to how it is determined (sorry :sad2

It is based on the given dimension below the lip inside the trim. If you measure down that far, mock up the bulkhead, see if it clears the trim, if it does, golden, if not, drop it down until it does. The tank will talk to you, as I said, it is not horribly complicated...

My pump will push approximately 550gph at 4' in a perfect world, not sure how much I'll lose due to friction ect. Its outlet is 3/4". Can I use a bushing and immediately up the diameter to 1" or will that make no difference?

Bush off the pump directly to 1". Don't pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars on the way... Friction loss can vary with the number of fittings, types of fittings, and length of pipes between, it can be very significant. In 3/4" pipe/hose the friction loss is most often excessive.

 

[chiroken]

Bush off the pump directly to 1". Don't pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars on the way...

Uncle, thanks again.

OK, so the waterfall height and water level in the overflow will basically work itself out, not something I am specifically measuring and planning beforehand. It will pretty much be determined by where I place the bulkhead and the depth of the overflow water will be determined by the width of the weir (same volume of water over different widths, get that) and as long as the top of the weir is level with the bottom of trim I won't see the waterline.

The overall height of the box will be determined once I have the bulkhead and elbow in place, plus clearance under the elbow.

The outlet of the pump is threaded so I want a threaded bushing to get myself to 1". So 3/4" thread x 1" slip bushing basically (if this is even available). I hear you on the reliability of unions. What do you suggest just above the return pump to allow removal of the pump? (grinning to see if your answer is a hack saw again )

Sound right?

 

[Drama]

can you recommend a decent gate valve for 1 1/2" sch 40 slip. I've been searching around and get ranges from 14$ all the way into the hundreds. i would be comfortable spending 30 - 50$

 

[uncleof6]

can you recommend a decent gate valve for 1 1/2" sch 40 slip. I've been searching around and get ranges from 14$ all the way into the hundreds. i would be comfortable spending 30 - 50$

See if you can source a KBI valve (getting harder these days since the parent company was split up) in sch80 with Viton seals, (better for salt than EPDM.) They are in your price range. You don't really want a sch40 valve. I had a link, but I have so many bookmarks it is sometimes impossible to find a single one....

The small valve is a disassembled spears ball valve.

 

[Drama]

can you recommend a decent gate valve for 1 1/2" sch 40 slip. I've been searching around and get ranges from 14$ all the way into the hundreds. i would be comfortable spending 30 - 50$

never mind found some decent ones. thanks

 

[uncleof6]

Uncle, thanks again.

OK, so the waterfall height and water level in the overflow will basically work itself out, not something I am specifically measuring and planning beforehand. It will pretty much be determined by where I place the bulkhead and the depth of the overflow water will be determined by the width of the weir (same volume of water over different widths, get that) and as long as the top of the weir is level with the bottom of trim I won't see the waterline.

Well sorta, it sounds more complicated than it is though. The head height behind the weir (tank side) is determined by flow rate, and length of the weir. The water level in the overflow is determined by the 'internal weir' height in the tee. Easier to say bulkhead height, though not exactly. So the height of the waterfall is the difference between the head height behind the weir, and the water level in the overflow.

The overall height of the box will be determined once I have the bulkhead and elbow in place, plus clearance under the elbow.

Roger that...

The outlet of the pump is threaded so I want a threaded bushing to get myself to 1". So 3/4" thread x 1" slip bushing basically (if this is even available). I hear you on the reliability of unions. What do you suggest just above the return pump to allow removal of the pump? (grinning to see if your answer is a hack saw again )

Hacksaw....ok ok could not resist... this is the one place a union comes in very handy, and in fact are obligatory. I use spa fittings. However, I use much larger pumps. Hunt around pool supply shops, if you want these, they can be had in 1".

Sound right?

Eventually

Oh, ignore the absurdity of the 2" gate valve on the intake: really pointless, [insert cheap ball valve here] but was the only 2" valve I had laying around at the time.

 

[Drama]

looks like some sort of weapon. lol:blown:

 

[DownwardDawg]

Greetings. Haven't posted in a while but I just ordered a new DSA 65 Pro to replace the 60 gal tank I have now. We are moving so I used the move as an excuse for a new tank. WTH.

Anyway, this DSA tank has 3 holes in a center overflow box. I want to go with the Beananimal overflow but I'm not exactly sure just how to do it in a regular overflow box. I know the popular answer will be to go read the thread but I'm lazy and I'm not reading through 678,000,000,000,000 posts to find an answer!!

1) Are the elbows required or can you just use straight pipe? My 125 runs dual Herbie's but the pipes are straight, no elbows
2) How high up in the box can the full siphon be? The ones in my Herbie system sit about halfway up in the box but are choked back by gate valves so the water level sits well above them.
3) Shouldn't the open channel drain be above the full siphon?
4) At what level does the tubing sit at that comes out of the top of the open channel.

 

[uncleof6]

I know the popular answer will be to go read the thread but I'm lazy and I'm not reading through 678,000,000,000,000 posts to find an answer!!

Well that is fair enough. You probably will have to read < 100 posts, perhaps just within the last 10 pages, to find your answers, so that is 677,999,999,999,900 that you won't have to read. I can live with that...I am certain, that the few of us that have put considerable time and energy into this source of information, can live with that too...

 

[DownwardDawg]

Well that is fair enough. You probably will have to read < 100 posts, perhaps just within the last 10 pages, to find your answers, so that is 677,999,999,999,900 that you won't have to read. I can live with that...I am certain, that the few of us that have put considerable time and energy into this source of information, can live with that too...

Hhhhmmmmm. I think that's fair enough. Last 10 pages.....
Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. That helps a bunch!

 

[Drama]

Gate valve showed up, thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

took this pic just to show how big it is, man those fingers are like hotdogs. Lol

 

[chiroken]

So go with a schedule 80 gate valve....got it. The main plumbing is to be schedule 40. Now, can I assume that schedule 40 outside diameter is consistent with schedule 80 so that my PVC piping will have the right fit into a schedule 80 fitting or valve? Is the OD consistent, just the ID different due to a thicker sch80 wall? Thx.

 

[BonsaiNut]

Should I be concerned with the 1/16" off level. My level said it was level but the water doesn't lie.

(1) When using a construction or spirit level, always level twice - reversing/flipping the level between measurements, so that you will balance out any inaccuracies in the tool. I have a 6' level that I use for pool tables and I always measure all four sides as well as the diagonals TWICE.

(2) For aquariums, use a water level. 100% accurate, and cheaper too I'll bet you could make one with even going to the store

 

[rEeFnWrX]

Well sorta, it sounds more complicated than it is though. The head height behind the weir (tank side) is determined by flow rate, and length of the weir. The water level in the overflow is determined by the 'internal weir' height in the tee. Easier to say bulkhead height, though not exactly. So the height of the waterfall is the difference between the head height behind the weir, and the water level in the overflow.

Roger that...

Hacksaw....ok ok could not resist... this is the one place a union comes in very handy, and in fact are obligatory. I use spa fittings. However, I use much larger pumps. Hunt around pool supply shops, if you want these, they can be had in 1".

Eventually

Oh, ignore the absurdity of the 2" gate valve on the intake: really pointless, [insert cheap ball valve here] but was the only 2" valve I had laying around at the time.

Please correct me if I am wrong... However, from research and what pump manufactures have told me in the past. Is it not best to put your flow regulating valve on the outlet side of a pump.... Have always been told regulating the inlet side can cause premature wear and tear...

 

[samba]

Hi all. I have read quite a lot of this thread including at least the first 20 pages, but I can't seem to find the answer to my question. Is 5 mm clearance under the syphon elbow going to create problems? The overflow box is 95mm high and the weir lip is 1" below a rimless tank (36Lx18Wx24"H) with 1" plumbing throughout(no t pieces just elbows). The secondary is 12mm above the syphon and the emergency is about 10mm above the top of the down turned open drain. I will have the tube that comes out of the secondary sit about 10mm above the emergency and level with the lip of the weir.
Sound ok?

 

[jc286006]

hello all

i am putting this type of overflow on 2- 40B`s i know it has been said in previous posts that it isnt needed on that size tanks but that is what i am going to do because this type of overflow looks to be the easiest to get built and adjusted if instructions are followed.

the bulkheads i am using are 1 inch do i need to increase the drop pipe size to 1 1/2 inches or would 1 inch through out my build be sufficient.

the tanks are going to be stacked on top of each other in a custom built stand the top tank will have a fall of approximately 54 inches the lower tank will only have about a 28 to 30 inch fall into the sump tank.

the way they will be setup they will be straight down no elbows of any kind other than the elbows inside the overflow box and the elbow of the clean out Tee`s

what do you think 1 inch all the way through or increase to 1 1/2 after the bulkheads?

thanks for your suggestions
James

 

[uncleof6]

Please correct me if I am wrong... However, from research and what pump manufactures have told me in the past. Is it not best to put your flow regulating valve on the outlet side of a pump.... Have always been told regulating the inlet side can cause premature wear and tear...

That is correct. The image is obviously going to be misinterpreted, and that was alluded to when I posted it. The image was posted in reference to spa fittings not the valve. The image was originally taken for other purposes, that required that a valve be in place on the inlet, and that is the only 2" valve I had laying around....

"Oh, ignore the absurdity of the 2" gate valve on the intake: really pointless, [insert cheap ball valve here] but was the only 2" valve I had laying around at the time."

That said, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with a gate valve on the intake, other than it needs to be run full open, so it takes more than a 1/4 turn to shut off flow for pump removal. It is a mis-application of a gate valve, and it should be a ball valve; using a ball valve on the outlet is a mis-application of a ball valve. Ball valve: on/off. Gate valve: flow control.

 

[uncleof6]

Hi all. I have read quite a lot of this thread including at least the first 20 pages, but I can't seem to find the answer to my question. Is 5 mm clearance under the syphon elbow going to create problems? The overflow box is 95mm high and the weir lip is 1" below a rimless tank (36Lx18Wx24"H) with 1" plumbing throughout(no t pieces just elbows). The secondary is 12mm above the syphon and the emergency is about 10mm above the top of the down turned open drain. I will have the tube that comes out of the secondary sit about 10mm above the emergency and level with the lip of the weir.
Sound ok?

This is covered well (100's of times) both in this thread and otherwise. Although there is no standard for this, 19mm is what I recommend. Anything less is trying to make this as small as possible, and that is where problems begin.

There really is no reason to be putting the bulkheads higher or lower in relation to each other, and no reason for the open channel to be above the siphon, or the siphon below the open channel (however one wishes to view it). The issue that this solves, is due to implementation errors, that can be avoided, by attention to detail, and an understanding of how the system works.

 

[uncleof6]

hello all

i am putting this type of overflow on 2- 40B`s i know it has been said in previous posts that it isnt needed on that size tanks but that is what i am going to do because this type of overflow looks to be the easiest to get built and adjusted if instructions are followed.

the bulkheads i am using are 1 inch do i need to increase the drop pipe size to 1 1/2 inches or would 1 inch through out my build be sufficient.

the tanks are going to be stacked on top of each other in a custom built stand the top tank will have a fall of approximately 54 inches the lower tank will only have about a 28 to 30 inch fall into the sump tank.

the way they will be setup they will be straight down no elbows of any kind other than the elbows inside the overflow box and the elbow of the clean out Tee`s

what do you think 1 inch all the way through or increase to 1 1/2 after the bulkheads?

thanks for your suggestions
James

1" bulkhead has a flow capacity at 24" drop, of 1669gph. In 1" pipe, that flow can be expected to be down around 1200gph. In 1.5" pipe, 1500gph can be expected.

The only problem you can expect, with 1" pipe, is that it does not get any worse than running a 1" durso, in terms of keeping them quiet, and bubble free. Well...a 3/4" durso would be worse... I would suggests 1.25" pipe on the 1" bulkhead for the open channel.