Mrramsey
NEO Reefer
Fair enough :lol: my question was really "is it possible to improve the design?"
IMO this system is as close to perfect as you can get on this scale. I have done 2 BA's and won't consider anything else.
Silent and Failsafe Overflow System
- Thread starter JohnL
- Start date
IMO this system is as close to perfect as you can get on this scale. I have done 2 BA's and won't consider anything else.
uncleof6
Active member
Maybe I'm just more of a glass-half-full kind of guy, but I consider that to be a pretty wide bandwidth, at least when you compare to the options out there for silent systems. A 1.5" durso may be able to handle 350 gph, but since most people are running them at the top of their capacity, their functional silent bandwidth ends up being much smaller (probably on the order of 50 gph) A Herbie with a dry backup has an equally small or even smaller bandwidth. (A wet herbie is simply a Bean with the safety of a dry standpipe removed, so I won't get into that.)
Since the Bean system allows you to have the set point at the bottom of the flow range for the durso, you can use close to the entire capacity for self adjustment as you said; a major improvement over the standard durso & Herbie configurations.
Fair enough :lol: my question was really "is it possible to improve the design?"
Anything is possible, but you have to get up pretty early in the morning to get a head start...
Dry fit the plumbing for the overflow drains. Not a fan of using unions, but I have little choice in this instance, as I have to take it apart to move it into the house.
I also need to figure out where I'm putting my gate valve. I'm leaning towards down by the sump. will have to figure that out.
I also need to figure out where I'm putting my gate valve. I'm leaning towards down by the sump. will have to figure that out.
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hbash
New member
I have a question regarding the placement of the return pipes within the sump. The emergency is actually not underwater in the sump. The syphon is about 3/4" below the water in the sump. And, the Open Channel is about 1/4" below the water in the sump. Also of note is that the Open Channel and the Syphon elbows are identically plumbed within my overflow box.
I think that the Open Channel must be lower in the sump than the syphon or it will keep the syphon standpipe from purging all the air and becoming the full syphon. I think that is what is going on and that that is causing the syphon to produce micro bubbles. I know that an air leak somewhere in the line could do so as well, but want to eliminate the obvious first.
Please advise and sorry for asking the obvious which I'm sure has been covered many times before my post here.
I think that the Open Channel must be lower in the sump than the syphon or it will keep the syphon standpipe from purging all the air and becoming the full syphon. I think that is what is going on and that that is causing the syphon to produce micro bubbles. I know that an air leak somewhere in the line could do so as well, but want to eliminate the obvious first.
Please advise and sorry for asking the obvious which I'm sure has been covered many times before my post here.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
The emergency drain does not need to be submerged, but doing so (less than an inch or so) will prevent splashing. In higher flow systems the emergency drain may kick in during startup...
The open channel does not need to be lower, trying to use the depth to alter the flow and/or startup characteristics of the system is not advised. It works as published for any reasonable flow rate.
The open channel does not need to be lower, trying to use the depth to alter the flow and/or startup characteristics of the system is not advised. It works as published for any reasonable flow rate.
hbash
New member
Greetings and thanks for the response. I am not clear if it's a matter of my not allowing the water to rise enough in the overflow box to produce the full syphon and that that will be sufficient to lower the level in the box such that the Open Channel water flow will be a trickle as I have read it should be. I am seeing micro bubbles and perhaps that is why.
Perhaps the level in the box need be raised a bit. At the moment it is at the half way mark of the downturned (syphon and open) elbows.
Thanks.
Perhaps the level in the box need be raised a bit. At the moment it is at the half way mark of the downturned (syphon and open) elbows.
Thanks.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Fair enough :lol: my question was really "is it possible to improve the design?"
For a given environment, there may be a better, safer, quieter, or (pick a set of design criteria) design that meets the goal in that specific environment. The goal here was to publish a stable. safe and quiet system that was easy to implement over an extremely wide range of flow rates WITHOUT having to adjust the configuration OR compromise the safety or quiet operation. At any given flow rate, the system remains table quiet and safe. Furthermore, the system can easily be scaled up beyond the maximum capacity WITHOUT changing the configuration or operating principle and ONLY upsizing the parts.
hbash
New member
I was checking some running demos on youtube and found this one and here is the associated picture:
and URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWMzmiU3wDY
This guy has the syphon slightly lower in the overflow box than the open channel which seems to work to obtain the closed syphon on the BA system. Is this wrong or am I just not setting the height of the water line in my box high enough? His "version" seems to function as desired.
Please advise.
and URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWMzmiU3wDY
This guy has the syphon slightly lower in the overflow box than the open channel which seems to work to obtain the closed syphon on the BA system. Is this wrong or am I just not setting the height of the water line in my box high enough? His "version" seems to function as desired.
Please advise.
uncleof6
Active member
I was checking some running demos on youtube and found this one and here is the associated picture:
and URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWMzmiU3wDY
This guy has the syphon slightly lower in the overflow box than the open channel which seems to work to obtain the closed syphon on the BA system. Is this wrong or am I just not setting the height of the water line in my box high enough? His "version" seems to function as desired.
Please advise.
The "raising of the open channel" is a fix for a problem, that does not exist if the system is built correctly. It is unnecessary, and is not included in the part that says "it works as designed."
I see one of the reasons the guy had to do that, and even at that, probably still has the problem. There is a whole lot of difference between working, and working properly/as intended. Videos don't mean a whole lot either. Sorry, I don't much pay attention to hacked up drain systems.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
I have not read back to see what actual issues you are having...
Depending on flow rate, there will be some bubbles, but nowhere near what would be generated by an air tuned standpipe.
Bubbles being ejected from the siphon standpipe indicate an air leak or air being pulled in from the overflow box. As water falls over the weir and generates small bubbles, even a few, they can be pulled into the siphon standpipe and ejected many small bubbles.
Closing the siphon to raise the water level in the box will force more water through the open channel. Opening the siphon to lower the water level in the box will allow less water to flow in the open channel. There is a fairly broad range where the system is stable. On the one side the open channel may eject some bubbles and on the other the siphon is more likely to spit out a few here and there. In either case there are magnitudes less than with a traditional air adjusted standpipe or high flow open channel.
Hope that helps...
Depending on flow rate, there will be some bubbles, but nowhere near what would be generated by an air tuned standpipe.
Bubbles being ejected from the siphon standpipe indicate an air leak or air being pulled in from the overflow box. As water falls over the weir and generates small bubbles, even a few, they can be pulled into the siphon standpipe and ejected many small bubbles.
Closing the siphon to raise the water level in the box will force more water through the open channel. Opening the siphon to lower the water level in the box will allow less water to flow in the open channel. There is a fairly broad range where the system is stable. On the one side the open channel may eject some bubbles and on the other the siphon is more likely to spit out a few here and there. In either case there are magnitudes less than with a traditional air adjusted standpipe or high flow open channel.
Hope that helps...
Well, I did it. I tested it, and it works!
At startup the water climbs to the emergency for about 10 seconds, then dies down. The Open channel kicks in, but never goes to a full siphon. Takes about 30-45 seconds I guess, and the main siphon kicks in and takes about another 30-45 seconds to completely purge air. From start to silence is about 90 seconds or so.
At startup the water climbs to the emergency for about 10 seconds, then dies down. The Open channel kicks in, but never goes to a full siphon. Takes about 30-45 seconds I guess, and the main siphon kicks in and takes about another 30-45 seconds to completely purge air. From start to silence is about 90 seconds or so.
hbash
New member
I have been playing around a bit with the water level in the overflow box in the name of eliminating any micro bubbles getting pulled down the syphon into the overflow box and to minimize the water flow down the open channel.
There does seem to be a relation between that water height, the bubbles and the open channel water rate into the sump. The higher the water line in the overflow box, the clearer the water coming down the syphon but also more water comes down the channel.
This must be the "tuning" that everyone is referring to.
The water never rises to flow into the emergency standpipe no matter how high I have raised the level on the overflow box by the syphon's gate valve. I think (please correct me if I am missing the boat here), I need to raise the level such that at startup I will have the water level higher and include the emergency channel until the syphon kicks in.
There does seem to be a relation between that water height, the bubbles and the open channel water rate into the sump. The higher the water line in the overflow box, the clearer the water coming down the syphon but also more water comes down the channel.
This must be the "tuning" that everyone is referring to.
The water never rises to flow into the emergency standpipe no matter how high I have raised the level on the overflow box by the syphon's gate valve. I think (please correct me if I am missing the boat here), I need to raise the level such that at startup I will have the water level higher and include the emergency channel until the syphon kicks in.
Here come my issues. I knew this was going to come, so I'm not surprised at all by this. I rigged up the pump I'll actually be using, and tuning has become more difficult.
If I adjust the gate valve so that only a trickle of water goes down the open, I mean, barely a trickle, the water never rises to the emergency during start up. Not sure if that's good or bad, but that's what happens.
If I dip the airpipe in water, the open channel siphon does not occur (water never starts siphoning through the clear tubing).
Now, having said those 2 things, I do not have the bottom drain pipes cemented into the 45 degree elbow. The rest of the drains have been cemented.
I have thread sealant around the caps, which I may remove, and re-apply.
If I adjust the gate valve so that only a trickle of water goes down the open, I mean, barely a trickle, the water never rises to the emergency during start up. Not sure if that's good or bad, but that's what happens.
If I dip the airpipe in water, the open channel siphon does not occur (water never starts siphoning through the clear tubing).
Now, having said those 2 things, I do not have the bottom drain pipes cemented into the 45 degree elbow. The rest of the drains have been cemented.
I have thread sealant around the caps, which I may remove, and re-apply.
Here's a video of the noise. It's air. I'm not sure where it's coming from, and I am toying the idea of siliconing each joint before I take off that threaded cap and re-apply thread sealant, even though I'm 99% sure it's coming from there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1YLwaLIgio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1YLwaLIgio
woodnaquanut
Active member
Some of the noise will lessen when there is life in the tank. Once a slime coat happens, it tends to smooth thing out.
It does look like there is a small air leak in the siphon. Perhaps there is cavitation at the siphon intake? Also the air might be getting in right above the sump if those connections are not cemented in. If you used PVC cement on the other joints, I would not bother with silly-cone.
It doesn't look like you have too much flow in the open channel.
woodnaquanut
Active member
I'd consider that a good thing. I like to keep the dry drain dry unless there really is an emergency.
As long as the siphon starts up on it's own after a power down event I'd say you are good to go.
You can simulate a siphon blockage by closing the gate valve. If everything else is working you should get water in the emergency and a full, VERY noisy, siphon in the open channel.
Yep. I closed the gate valve, and water rose quic through the emergency, then covered the air hose...now that still had a ton of bubbles, but I guess that's normal.
The only piece that isn't cemented in is that very bottom pipe. the top half of the 45 is cemented...I used a TON of thread sealant on the cap and the adaptor, I can't imagine that's where the air is coming from. I also made it a point to use enough cement that when I put it together, it squirted out at the seam.
having said all that, the system works. it's not as quiet (yet) as I want, but it doesn't flood, and not helping matters is that my garage floor isn't level, so neither is the water level.
The only piece that isn't cemented in is that very bottom pipe. the top half of the 45 is cemented...I used a TON of thread sealant on the cap and the adaptor, I can't imagine that's where the air is coming from. I also made it a point to use enough cement that when I put it together, it squirted out at the seam.
having said all that, the system works. it's not as quiet (yet) as I want, but it doesn't flood, and not helping matters is that my garage floor isn't level, so neither is the water level.
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