Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[hbash]

Silicone

Silicone

Here's a tip... Don't glue the elbows to the bulkhead inside if the overflow. Just use a little smear of silicone to create a seal. The elbows will be held in place just fine and you can remove them when / if needed with minimal effort. I also used slip to thread bulkheads for easy disassembly if needed.

Can you give me more details regarding the silicone? What brand have you been using and/or where to obtain same?

Thanks.

 

[Mrramsey]

Can you give me more details regarding the silicone? What brand have you been using and/or where to obtain same?

Thanks.

I used the DAP aquarium safe silicone from my local Ace Hardware. one was enough for the overflow and my sump.

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1419409

 

[hbash]

Thanks

 

[woodnaquanut]

Well, I found a hole! About 1/4" opening at ththe gate valve seal. I removed my support clamp and saw water there.

I can silicone it or try to tear it apart...which I don't want to do. I can silicone it right? Or...I don't think I can do it but use the pvc cement there to fill the gap.

As others have said, NO SILICONE! It's at best a band-aid.

You say you have a 1/4" opening! That's huge and there should be a lot of water coming out of there. I'm still not sure where this opening is. Perhaps you could take a vid of it? Your last vid was nice but you need more light back there to see what is happening at the valve.

Whenever I'm looking for a leak, having found water I always look upstream. Often the water is coming from somewhere else and only collecting where you see it. The most likely candidate for a leak spot is the union just down stream of the sanitary tee.

In the vid it looks like you have cemented the pipe coming from the OF into the valve. Is this correct? Perhaps you forgot to cement it?

Finally, gate valves have two places to tighten on them. The big nut allows you to remove the handle and gate assembly. Closer to the handle is a small nut that tightens a compression seal around the shaft the handle turns. Are both of these water tight?

You've done a good job putting unions just down stream of the sanitary tees. It should be easy, assuming you can reach back there, to unscrew the union and remove the entire valve and pipe assembly for inspection/repair.

 

[uncleof6]

Here's a tip... Don't glue the elbows to the bulkhead inside if the overflow. Just use a little smear of silicone to create a seal. The elbows will be held in place just fine and you can remove them when / if needed with minimal effort. I also used slip to thread bulkheads for easy disassembly if needed.

Worst idea yet. The elbows in the overflow need to be air tight. That means if they are socket fit (solvent weld) they must be solvent welded in. If threaded, a thread sealant should be be used. Silicone + PVC won't seal it. Period. It is a hack shortcut, that does not do the job. Please folks, do things the right way.

 

[uncleof6]

Yep. I closed the gate valve, and water rose quic through the emergency, then covered the air hose...now that still had a ton of bubbles, but I guess that's normal.

The only piece that isn't cemented in is that very bottom pipe. the top half of the 45 is cemented...I used a TON of thread sealant on the cap and the adaptor, I can't imagine that's where the air is coming from. I also made it a point to use enough cement that when I put it together, it squirted out at the seam.

having said all that, the system works. it's not as quiet (yet) as I want, but it doesn't flood, and not helping matters is that my garage floor isn't level, so neither is the water level.

The open channel air vent line being covered by water when the siphon is closed (or occluded) is wrong. The dry emergency should take the flow, and if and ONLY if the dry emergency is "closed" or "occluded" should the open channel air vent become submerged, and trip the open channel to siphon. Issue: air vent line too low in the overflow, or dry emergency too low as well in the overflow. The open channel should remain open channel unless both the siphon and dry emergency become occluded. It is the last line of defense.

 

[uncleof6]

Can you give me more details regarding the silicone? What brand have you been using and/or where to obtain same?

Thanks.

Like I said before, and Woody said just above: no silicone in/on/around your pvc plumbing. It is bad information. Don't look for easy fixes. It may not be convenient, but FIX it right.

 

[Mrramsey]

Worst idea yet. The elbows in the overflow need to be air tight. That means if they are socket fit (solvent weld) they must be solvent welded in. If threaded, a thread sealant should be be used. Silicone + PVC won't seal it. Period. It is a hack shortcut, that does not do the job. Please folks, do things the right way.

The silicone will seal the elbow and make an airtight connection to the submerged side of the bulkhead just fine. I did not state to use silicone on the threaded section. It's not like we are dealing with a pressure fitting here. It is just as air tight as a gasket friction fit that's all ... nothing more... nothing less.

I like to have the flexibility to disassemble my system. This works. It doesn't take much to seal that elbow to make it air tight. Uncle, don't get me wrong you give awesome advice and are extremely knowledgeable but sometimes things don't have to be all black and white. This is not a point of catastrophic failure.

 

[uncleof6]

I have been playing around a bit with the water level in the overflow box in the name of eliminating any micro bubbles getting pulled down the syphon into the overflow box and to minimize the water flow down the open channel.

There does seem to be a relation between that water height, the bubbles and the open channel water rate into the sump. The higher the water line in the overflow box, the clearer the water coming down the syphon but also more water comes down the channel.

This must be the "tuning" that everyone is referring to.

The water never rises to flow into the emergency standpipe no matter how high I have raised the level on the overflow box by the syphon's gate valve. I think (please correct me if I am missing the boat here), I need to raise the level such that at startup I will have the water level higher and include the emergency channel until the syphon kicks in.

You have implementation errors same as pdieham. Fix the problems. There are no mysterious issues with this drain system. If you have been following along, this is currently under discussion.

 

[uncleof6]

The silicone will seal the elbow and make an airtight connection to the submerged side of the bulkhead just fine. I did not state to use silicone on the threaded section. It's not like we are dealing with a pressure fitting here. It is just as air tight as a gasket friction fit that's all ... nothing more... nothing less.

I like to have the flexibility to disassemble my system. This works. It doesn't take much to seal that elbow to make it air tight. Uncle, don't get me wrong you give awesome advice and are extremely knowledgeable but sometimes things don't have to be all black and white. This is not a point of catastrophic failure.

If you want flexibility, then don't use slip elbows, use threaded bulkheads, with threaded street ells. Pretty simple if you ask me. This is part of the original design. You can use slip elbows if ya want, but they have to be solvent welded in place to insure the elbows are air tight. That is simply common sense. Silicone does not work good enough, and will not last. It is black and white. With the problems these two are having, the last thing needed is "incorrect advice."

If the elbows leak air, the system will not operate properly. It may not catastrophically fail, cause a flood, but it will not operate properly. I am sorry, it is a band aid for an issue caused by not planning well enough ahead, not reading carefully enough, or just being in a hurry—not willing to wait for the "threaded parts" to arrive, becasue Cheap Lousy Box Store doesn't have them. It is also related to making the overflow box as narrow as possible, in a way. "But but but... the box is not wide enough to unscrew the elbows if I use..." well I have said it before: the overflow box needs to be wide enough to work on the elbows...

I am sorry. Bean's system is not "Burger King," you can have it your way, but there will most likely be consequences.

No silicone.

 

[hbash]

PDIEHM has a 1/4" hole, I do not. As far as I can tell other than my C2C box is 4' wide and not 6' I don't see any digression from the defined implementation. I do see that raising and lowering the level in the OB does affect the water flow in the open channel and the syphon and any bubbles albeit micro bubbles that are occurring in the sump.

Potentially, all my bubbles are the result of the waterfall over my notches causing bubbles which I believe I could correct by raising the level in the OB.

Other than that we're both at hopefully the tail end of our implementations, I don't really see that PDIEHM and myself are addressing the same issue(s).

Appreciate any constructive suggestions. Thanks.

 

[Mrramsey]

You have implementation errors same as pdieham. Fix the problems. There are no mysterious issues with this drain system. If you have been following along, this is currently under discussion.

I don't have any problems at all. My drains .... well drain like a champ. No Noise, No bubbles etc. Flawless.

Sorry Uncle.. I should have been clearer in my initial post. it was meant as a tip for MMN's post earlier and not directed at the "hole in the valve" post. I took his post as disassembling the bulkheads etc.

 

[hbash]

The U6 "You have imp..." was referring to my query on micro bubbles. Congratulations on the perfect BA. I'm still looking for Eldorado.

 

[uncleof6]

PDIEHM has a 1/4" hole, I do not. As far as I can tell other than my C2C box is 4' wide and not 6' I don't see any digression from the defined implementation. I do see that raising and lowering the level in the OB does affect the water flow in the open channel and the syphon and any bubbles albeit micro bubbles that are occurring in the sump.

Potentially, all my bubbles are the result of the waterfall over my notches causing bubbles which I believe I could correct by raising the level in the OB.

Other than that we're both at hopefully the tail end of our implementations, I don't really see that PDIEHM and myself are addressing the same issue(s).

Appreciate any constructive suggestions. Thanks.

By same I mean "implementation issues," not necessarily the identical issue.

How far down in the overflow box are the tops of the elbows? Does the OB have teeth on it? (1" down is recommended, and no teeth on the overlfow.) Raising the water level in the overflow is going to increase the flow in the open channel. Which in turn increases the likelyhood of problems with the open channel. I most cases of bubbles (or too high of a waterfall) in the overflow box, you need to raise the elbows as well as the water level.

I hope so too, that you are both at the end of the ordeal.

 

[pdiehm]

Uncle -

So, my gate valve is basically 2 turns from being completely closed. Is it possible that my Sicce 4.0 pump isn't providing enough flow for me to open the valve and get a siphon?

If I shut the power and restart it takes a good 30-45 minutes to purge the air, and it runs silent, completely silent.

I was just talking to my fatherinlaw who is much more mechanically inclined and he seems to think that I am not pushing enough water fast enough to open the drain more and create a siphon. The Flotech pump I tested with was pushing about 1,000 gosh at 5'. The Sicce is maybe 600-700.

 

[hbash]

Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

The top of my elbow is 10 3/8" from bottom of OB. The fingers are 1 3/8". The OB is 12" high and all fittings and standpipes are 1 1/2".

So, the distance between the bottom of the fingers and the top of the elbow is between 1/8" and 1/4".

Based on my hanging on a ladder and dropping a ruler into the OB.

 

[535freak]

Why does it matter if the drain pipes in the sump are 1" or 6" below water level

 

[hbash]

Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

The further in the sump you have the drain pipes the more resistance you have pushing back on draining water.

 

[pdiehm]

Gentlemen (and Ladies)....

I am proud to say that I....Paul...am an idiot.

So, after talking to my father in law who got me on the right path regarding the pump output...it got me thinking. I remember reading somewhere in the previous 350 pages, that Uncleof6 mentioning that 3/4" tubing on the return will constrict it and you will lose quite a bit of output.

To give you an example, I used 3/4" garden hose (6') section to test my overflow. On the Home Depot Flotec return pump, I got crazy flow. The emergency kicked in and shortly thereafter the siphon kicked in.

Tonight, using that same garden hose, I tested it on the Sicce pump, and timed it. It took 12 minutes for the main siphon to take over, the emergency stayed dry. It took another 22 minutes for all the air to purge out of the pipe. Why? Because I had my gate valve literally 1.5 turns from full close. No wonder it took forever to purge the air. I had to dial it back to match the return flow.

I was on my way home, and I was thinking about calling BRS to reem them out, when it dawned on me that I have 1" piping that I'm going to be using. That's when I remembered what Uncle posted (contrary to popular opinion, I actually do read what you post Unc).

I attached the 1" PVC piping (ie: jerry-rigged it). Just loosely fit. The first time, it blew apart, and thus showed me why I was testing in the garage, not the house. Wetness and 30 degree temps. Not good or cool (no pun intended). Attached things tighter. Ran it. Emergency kicked in, had to open the valve up to I am estimating about half way. Siphon started. shut off the system and restarted it again. Emergency kicked in, main siphon took over after approximately 1 minute, and final air purge in like another 30 seconds or so.

I didn't have a leak. I did do this right. The problem was the return pump output tubing size.

yes, I'm an idiot. Yes, it's silent. took about 5 minutes to get it dialed in.

Did I say I'm an idiot?

I have asked for help about 100 times in this thread. I've received an answer about 30 of those times. I appreciate the help, and Uncle, next time you're in Delaware. Beer is on me. Thank you for your patience.

 

[hbash]

By same I mean "implementation issues," not necessarily the identical issue.

How far down in the overflow box are the tops of the elbows? Does the OB have teeth on it? (1" down is recommended, and no teeth on the overlfow.) Raising the water level in the overflow is going to increase the flow in the open channel. Which in turn increases the likelyhood of problems with the open channel. I most cases of bubbles (or too high of a waterfall) in the overflow box, you need to raise the elbows as well as the water level.

I hope so too, that you are both at the end of the ordeal.

The top of my elbow is 10 3/8" from bottom of OB. The fingers are 1 3/8". The OB is 12" high and all fittings and standpipes are 1 1/2".

So, the distance between the bottom of the fingers and the top of the elbow is between 1/8" and 1/4".

Based on my hanging on a ladder and dropping a ruler into the OB.