Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[uncleof6]

If there is no pressure I wouldn't worry about selling it. Maybe on the return side

If not sealed, there will be air leaks, and air leaks cause the system to not function properly.

 

[uncleof6]

Well maybe, I thought all three were to be the same height as they exit the collection box as mentioned I have shortened the length of the elbow so if breaks siphon before the full siphon drain. mmmmm to change will mean a new box made.

The listed "fixes" where put forth to solve a specific issue. The most common being large bulkheads with a low flow rate, a particular issue that cannot be solved by correcting other implementation errors. But on the other hand, the issue is not that "unsolvable" as the bulkheads can be bushed down to 1". In short, a properly implemented system does not require the mentioned modifications.

"I have shortened the length of the elbow so if breaks siphon before the full siphon drain."

I have been trying to decipher what you have going on, but some of what you are saying does not make sense. If what siphon breaks before the full siphon drain? There is only one siphon in the system, so there is no other siphon to break... You mentioned something about the "dry pipe" which would be the dry emergency, however, how that evolved into discussion of the open channel (a wet pipe) I don't know. There are no siphon breaks in the system, unless referring to the air vent on the open channel (which prevents siphon, rather than breaks it.)

This system does not start up instantly, not generally anyway. It can take several minutes for the system to sink in. It is normal for the system to be somewhat unstable during start up, it is normal for water to flow in the dry emergency during start up. If it continues for much more than a few minutes, there is something that needs to be addressed.

The only relative height difference that applies is the height difference between the inlet to the siphon elbow, (an easier reference point than trying to describe the "weir" of the stand pipe) and the inlet to the dry emergency. Look at this distance as the head pressure required to "purge the air out of the siphon" or "start the siphon." The problem I saw, when modelling small external boxes, was the needed height of the dry emergency was a bit close to the top of the box.

So I am not really sure what you have going on, nor certain that you have an issue that needs to be addressed.

 

[Voight]

Hey just looking to get some advice on my BA system sump design. DT is 75 gallons & the return pump is a mag 9.5. Thanks for any advice in advance & sorry for the sucky rendering.

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[asl4me76]

Hey just looking to get some advice on my BA system sump design. DT is 75 gallons & the return pump is a mag 9.5. Thanks for any advice in advance & sorry for the sucky rendering.

[/URL][/IMG]

Voight:

I would make the baffle in your return area not 9" high. Otherwise it is the same height as the one for the fuge area. Which means that there is not a flow over into the return area, but everything is level. I would maybe drop it 2" to make it 7".

 

[_E_]

There are 5 holes in my center overflow...3 - 1" drains and 2 - 3/4" returns.

My tank finally came in and my center overflow was accidentally drilled with 2 - 1" holes and 2 - 3/4" holes (I did get a discount because of the mix up). The holes are spaced out, so there is not the opportunity to drill another hole. I posted this question in another thread, but thought that I would here too because this thread gets so much traffic.

Can i still set up a Bean style drain system with this configuration? I was thinking:
Option #1...use the 2 - 3/4" holes for the full flow and siphon and the 2 - 1" holes for emergency and return.
Option #2...use the 2 - 1" holes for the full flow and emergency and the 2 - 3/4" holes for the siphon and return.
Option #3...use the 2 - 1" holes for the full and siphon and the 2 - 3/4" both for emergency. Take the return over the top.

I'm really hoping for the best of all worlds here: silence, failsafe design, and max flow. I was hoping to be able to push 8-10 x flow to the sump on a 140 gallon tank.

 

[mmn]

Hey just looking to get some advice on my BA system sump design. DT is 75 gallons & the return pump is a mag 9.5. Thanks for any advice in advance & sorry for the sucky rendering.

[/URL][/IMG]

According to the "wise", you shouldn't feed the fuge that way. Generally all the drains go over to the sump area. You could have the dry emergency go anywhere, but if it's wet on startup you probably don't want it spilling into the fuge. You feed the fuge with a tee and valve off the return pump.

Regards
Michael

 

[Mrramsey]

My tank finally came in and my center overflow was accidentally drilled with 2 - 1" holes and 2 - 3/4" holes (I did get a discount because of the mix up). The holes are spaced out, so there is not the opportunity to drill another hole. I posted this question in another thread, but thought that I would here too because this thread gets so much traffic.

Can i still set up a Bean style drain system with this configuration? I was thinking:
Option #1...use the 2 - 3/4" holes for the full flow and siphon and the 2 - 1" holes for emergency and return.
Option #2...use the 2 - 1" holes for the full flow and emergency and the 2 - 3/4" holes for the siphon and return.
Option #3...use the 2 - 1" holes for the full and siphon and the 2 - 3/4" both for emergency. Take the return over the top.

I'm really hoping for the best of all worlds here: silence, failsafe design, and max flow. I was hoping to be able to push 8-10 x flow to the sump on a 140 gallon tank.

Hey E

I think the real issue you are going to have with the center overflow and not doing a coast to coast is this. While the drain itself could handle the 1400gph you are targeting I don't believe the small overflow box would do it. At least not silently.

You at least have a tank you can experiment with. Since your bulkheads are all submerged you can experiment with different configurations.

If I were to try it I would do the siphon and dry emergency on the 1" and leave the 2 3/4 " ones as the open channels. Then again this does not sound like a stable implementation but it might work. I still think your biggest challenge with the overflow itself is getting 10x silently.

 

[Mrramsey]

Hey just looking to get some advice on my BA system sump design. DT is 75 gallons & the return pump is a mag 9.5. Thanks for any advice in advance & sorry for the sucky rendering.

[/URL][/IMG]

This is off topic and would be best in a thread of its own. The BA thread is about the implementation of the beananimal overflow and not sump design.

 

[robertifly]

The listed "fixes" where put forth to solve a specific issue. The most common being large bulkheads with a low flow rate, a particular issue that cannot be solved by correcting other implementation errors. But on the other hand, the issue is not that "unsolvable" as the bulkheads can be bushed down to 1". In short, a properly implemented system does not require the mentioned modifications.

"I have shortened the length of the elbow so if breaks siphon before the full siphon drain."

I have been trying to decipher what you have going on, but some of what you are saying does not make sense. If what siphon breaks before the full siphon drain? There is only one siphon in the system, so there is no other siphon to break... You mentioned something about the "dry pipe" which would be the dry emergency, however, how that evolved into discussion of the open channel (a wet pipe) I don't know. There are no siphon breaks in the system, unless referring to the air vent on the open channel (which prevents siphon, rather than breaks it.)

This system does not start up instantly, not generally anyway. It can take several minutes for the system to sink in. It is normal for the system to be somewhat unstable during start up, it is normal for water to flow in the dry emergency during start up. If it continues for much more than a few minutes, there is something that needs to be addressed.

The only relative height difference that applies is the height difference between the inlet to the siphon elbow, (an easier reference point than trying to describe the "weir" of the stand pipe) and the inlet to the dry emergency. Look at this distance as the head pressure required to "purge the air out of the siphon" or "start the siphon." The problem I saw, when modelling small external boxes, was the needed height of the dry emergency was a bit close to the top of the box.

So I am not really sure what you have going on, nor certain that you have an issue that needs to be addressed.

Uncle thank you for that information and correction to my terminology, I apologize for that. my system has been running for ten years (not with same return pump) I now use a smaller pump, Waveline DC-6000, I started out with two blue T4's so my flow is considerably less. I have what is now called a "ghost overflow" inside the tank plumbed straight thru the back to a box outside the tank via 4 3/4" bulkheads that holds it all together, water then exits straight out the back of that outside box thru 1.5" bulkheads with the emergency drain turned up, the siphon and "open channel" both turned down. Yes, the 1/4" air line as you pointed out ((referring to the air vent on the open channel (which prevents siphon, rather than breaks it.) )) I discovered two things while troubleshooting just now. 1. I had the 1/4" line too low in the box causing the Open Channel to go full siphon repeatedly (hence 5-6 cycles to start up) 2. The Waveline DC-6000 would not restart! Luckily I had a spare, with the 1/4" line raised and the new pump installed the system started up perfectly, I tried it two times just to be sure. Seems somehow over the years I had inadvertently let that 1/4" airline get too low forcing the Dry Channel to go full siphon repeatedly and subsequently me to continually be adjusting the valve on the siphon. Thanks again for the refresher course and bearing with an old mans forgetfulness.

 

[Voight]

Voight:

I would make the baffle in your return area not 9" high. Otherwise it is the same height as the one for the fuge area. Which means that there is not a flow over into the return area, but everything is level. I would maybe drop it 2" to make it 7".

Ok you mean the second 9" baffle correct, because I need the first 9" baffle to keep my skimmer water level correct.

 

[Voight]

According to the "wise", you shouldn't feed the fuge that way. Generally all the drains go over to the sump area. You could have the dry emergency go anywhere, but if it's wet on startup you probably don't want it spilling into the fuge. You feed the fuge with a tee and valve off the return pump.

Regards
Michael

I don't want to tee off my return pump because it will reduce its power. Also the pipe feeding my fuge is the open drain not the emergency so I was thinking it was perfect for the desired low flow of my refugium.

Also, when I purchased the plumbing for my system I got 1" piping for the emergency and open standpipe & 1.5" for the main siphon. Does this sound like a good idea or would the 1.5" be better on the open standpoint because the low flow would most likely cling to the walls of the bigger pipe. I read BA talking about this and it got me thinking about which drain would best utilize the 1.5". Or maybe I just go all 1"? Hope this makes sense, and any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[sleepydoc]

I don't want to tee off my return pump because it will reduce its power. Also the pipe feeding my fuge is the open drain not the emergency so I was thinking it was perfect for the desired low flow of my refugium.

Also, when I purchased the plumbing for my system I got 1" piping for the emergency and open standpipe & 1.5" for the main siphon. Does this sound like a good idea or would the 1.5" be better on the open standpoint because the low flow would most likely cling to the walls of the bigger pipe. I read BA talking about this and it got me thinking about which drain would best utilize the 1.5". Or maybe I just go all 1"? Hope this makes sense, and any advice would be greatly appreciated.

If anything I would do the reverse. 1" full siphon will have more than adequate flow for most people. Larger diameter pipe will allow a larger range of silent flows through the durso.

 

[Voight]

If anything I would do the reverse. 1" full siphon will have more than adequate flow for most people. Larger diameter pipe will allow a larger range of silent flows through the durso.

So you're saying 1" on main siphon & 1.5 on the open standpoint, correct?

 

[uncleof6]

I don't want to tee off my return pump because it will reduce its power. Also the pipe feeding my fuge is the open drain not the emergency so I was thinking it was perfect for the desired low flow of my refugium.

Also, when I purchased the plumbing for my system I got 1" piping for the emergency and open standpipe & 1.5" for the main siphon. Does this sound like a good idea or would the 1.5" be better on the open standpoint because the low flow would most likely cling to the walls of the bigger pipe. I read BA talking about this and it got me thinking about which drain would best utilize the 1.5". Or maybe I just go all 1"? Hope this makes sense, and any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Because it involves the drain system:

There is not enough flow through the open channel to feed a fuge. It would not be perfect, and it is not intended to be feeding anything. Drop the siphon and open channel into the same body of water, the skimmer section where it should be. There are several reasons for that, including the interaction between the siphon and open channel. Feeding raw water from the tank to the fuge turns it into a garbage dump, especially with pathetic low flow rates, it will anyway, but no sense helping it along. I don't know where the myth concerning "low flow" through the fuge came from, but it is invalid, unless you intend to keep seahorses in it. If you are going to run a so called "fuge" in the sump, power feed it from the pump. You may need a larger pump, but you probably already need that anyway. (You may want to consider a higher quality pump; see below) You can put the fuge between the skimmer section and return section, if you want, but you loose the ability to bypass it.

If you use 1.5" pipe for the siphon, you should use 1.5" pipe for the open channel and dry emergency. If you want to use 1.5" pipe on just one of the three, use it on the open channel. 1" pipe makes for a horrible "durso" standpipe in the first place.

What size the pipe needs to be is dependent on the target flow rate, and the length of the drop. I seriously doubt you will be flowing enough to get out of the range of 1" pipe for the siphon and dry emergency, your pump can't do it. However, the original design used 1.5" pipe on 1" bulkheads for all three, and it will work fine.

FYI: Because the mag drive 9.5 (and larger) are poorly designed pumps, you will need to use 1.5" pipe on the outlet to the tank, if you want to get any flow out of it. The advice is in the instructions.

 

[_E_]

Hey E

I think the real issue you are going to have with the center overflow and not doing a coast to coast is this. While the drain itself could handle the 1400gph you are targeting I don't believe the small overflow box would do it. At least not silently.

You at least have a tank you can experiment with. Since your bulkheads are all submerged you can experiment with different configurations.

If I were to try it I would do the siphon and dry emergency on the 1" and leave the 2 3/4 " ones as the open channels. Then again this does not sound like a stable implementation but it might work. I still think your biggest challenge with the overflow itself is getting 10x silently.

Unfortunately, I couldnt go C2C for several reasons. I'm just hoping to maximize what ive got to work with.

 

[overexposed]

Implemented a beananimal drain on my new 205 gallon build. I used it on my 90 gallon but had startup issues that I was never able to solve.... the full siphon would not restart after power outages unless I opened up the gate valve and then closed it back to the proper position.

Thankfully the new implementation works flawlessly and becomes silent within 15-20 seconds. The only thing I did different this time was put the gate valve as low as absolutely possible on the full siphon pipe. And this tank uses an external overflow box vs the internal of my old tank.

Anyways just wanted to chime in and share some pictures of my work for others who do a beananimal with an external overflow box in the future.

 

[Voight]

Uncle,
What pump would you suggest that's no too big?

Eheim 5000?

 

[jc03]

Hello, I apologize in advance if this has already been addressed. I posted some overflow related questions back on page 308 and am still trying to wrap my head around all of this. I'm getting ready to purchase bulkheads for my 12', 540 gallon. I haven't drilled the back yet so I have some flexibility. I'm setting up as close to a coast to coast overflow as I can and am shooting for gph in the 3000 range. I'd like to be flexible if at some pont I need more flow though. Would 1 1/2" bulkheads be sufficient if I use 2" pvc or should I jump up to 2" bulkheads and run 2" or even bigger pvc? Thanks.

 

[NaCi]

Ok so ive done some reading and I want to make sure I have the measurements for my bean animal right. Im getting my glass cut on wednesday for an overflow. I wanted coast to coast but the trim on my tank dips inside like an inch, and it has two braces going across so I wont be able to fit the right size for a c2c. Instead im going with a 38"x4"x5" overflow and ill have 10" left over to make another hole for the return line.

I have a 70 gal tank 48"x16.5"x21.5". So I have to allow the overflow water to have atleast an inch of drop right?

 

[uncleof6]

Hello, I apologize in advance if this has already been addressed. I posted some overflow related questions back on page 308 and am still trying to wrap my head around all of this. I'm getting ready to purchase bulkheads for my 12', 540 gallon. I haven't drilled the back yet so I have some flexibility. I'm setting up as close to a coast to coast overflow as I can and am shooting for gph in the 3000 range. I'd like to be flexible if at some pont I need more flow though. Would 1 1/2" bulkheads be sufficient if I use 2" pvc or should I jump up to 2" bulkheads and run 2" or even bigger pvc? Thanks.

2" or larger... target ~ 5kgph+. Don't fool about with the silly rules of thumb.