Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[mike810]

Is there a problem if the drain lines terminate 3-4" below the water line? I had a sump made and requested the drain lines end 1" below the water line but instead it ends 3-4" below the water line. Now I cannot remove the drains to cut it shorter. I'm worried the back pressure might interfere with the full siphon.

 

[neilp2006]

Is there a problem if the drain lines terminate 3-4" below the water line? I had a sump made and requested the drain lines end 1" below the water line but instead it ends 3-4" below the water line. Now I cannot remove the drains to cut it shorter. I'm worried the back pressure might interfere with the full siphon.

Yeah, it might not be possible for all of the air in the syphon line to purge completely, making if impossible to create a true syphon.

If you really can't get in there to cut them back, can you at least drill a bunch of large diameter holes one inch below the water level? That'll help purge those aid bubbles




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[mike810]

Here is my problem, the sump is a dream box and once assembled, the drain compartment is completely sealed off. I'd need some type of angle drill bit to drill holes in the drain pipe

 

[uncleof6]

Here is my problem, the sump is a dream box and once assembled, the drain compartment is completely sealed off. I'd need some type of angle drill bit to drill holes in the drain pipe

Outlet depth > 1" will effect the starting of the system, and the system may well not start at all and simply air lock. Drilling holes in the drain lines may work, but there is no promise that it will do so.

Without access, it's pretty much a done deal. Obviously, the sump builder did NOT follow your wishes and design criteria. Rather applied their "own thoughts" without regard to your request. This puts solving the problem squarely on the shoulders of the builder of the sump. I would be on the phone with them, to determine why they ignored your request, or whether or not it is even possible for them to do so, (I don't expect sump builders to know much of anything about drain system requirements) rather than trying to find a hack to make it work.

Looks like an "interesting" sump, however way too complicated and completely unnecessary. Simple sumps work better, and are very much less of a hassle—and less money invested. I seldom (if ever) recommend purchasing a manufactured/commercial built sump. They "look cool," but that is about where it ends. The number of socks (or what appear to be socks) in that thing, is off the hook! 40 breeder, 3 baffles, and call it good.

 

[pfoxgrover]

Mike810,
Can you get those unions off and replace the length of pipe below them? That seems like a solution.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Wow... does that thing fly or make pancakes?

My honest nickel? Overpriced silliness.

"...completely sealed off"

And maybe bafflingly (pun?) over-engineered to a fault.

 

[ClownsRCoo]

Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

Is there a problem if the drain lines terminate 3-4" below the water line? I had a sump made and requested the drain lines end 1" below the water line but instead it ends 3-4" below the water line. Now I cannot remove the drains to cut it shorter. I'm worried the back pressure might interfere with the full siphon.

It's not going to effect the drains abilities at all. I have a dreambox too and it works just fine. It's annoying having to take it from metric to US plumbing but other than that you will be fine.



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[uncleof6]

It's not going to effect the drains abilities at all. I have a dreambox too and it works just fine. It's annoying having to take it from metric to US plumbing but other than that you will be fine.
View attachment 371827


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Yes it does affect the drains abilities. Several years of testing, trouble shooting, and solving problems have shown (proven) that outlets terminating more than 1" below the water level in the sump can and does prevent this system (and any other siphon system) from starting up properly, or not allowing the system to start up at all. The physics are the physics. The Dream box cannot beat the physics, nor can anything else.

 

[ClownsRCoo]

Ok well you can see plain as day I also have a dreambox and it's working just fine. It may take a little longer than yours to purge the air from the system but it runs a full siphon with no problems. Thanks for telling me how my system should run but I'm trying to tell this guy who needs to hear first hand experience that he's going to be fine.


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[BeanAnimal]

Ok well you can see plain as day I also have a dreambox and it's working just fine. It may take a little longer than yours to purge the air from the system but it runs a full siphon with no problems. Thanks for telling me how my system should run but I'm trying to tell this guy who needs to hear first hand experience that he's going to be fine.


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In fact, he may not be fine. The ability for the siphon standpipe to overcome the head pressure and purge the air is dependent on several variables. These include flow rate, vertical head, piping configuration, intake configuration, etc.

Like every aspect of this system, there is a reason for the published spec. Systems built outside of that design spec may or may not operate as expected. That is the point that Jim was trying to make.

 

[Overgrown]

Question: I've been running this system for years and just embarked on a new build, but apparently got laxadaisical and plumbed a gate onto my open channel standpipe instead of my siphon.(I only run one valve, usually on my siphon)

The system seems to be operating properly but I'm just wondering if I should cut some pipe and add in a gate to the siphon. Attached is a photo of what's going on in my open channel.
Any thoughts on if that amount of water in the pipe looks to be appropriate, and if it is falling down the pipe appropriately as well. I could tune the valve on the OC to get more of a "spiral" down the walls, but then that will, if i understand correctly, mess with its potential siphon capabilites in the event of a clog on the full siphon standpipe.

Thanks

 

[Swensos]

You need a gate or ball valve on your siphon channel so that you can tune the overflow to your flow. Cut the pipe and add the gate valve. The open channel can have a gate valve, which might be nice for maintenance, but it must be open all the way.


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[Overgrown]

You need a gate or ball valve on your siphon channel so that you can tune the overflow to your flow. Cut the pipe and add the gate valve. The open channel can have a gate valve, which might be nice for maintenance, but it must be open all the way.


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Right. In previous systems I had a gate on the siphon, and as mentioned this time around I accidentally plumbed it on the OC. But I notice with this orientation that I can still control the level in my C2C overflow with the gate on the output of the return pump, and since I don't have a gate on my siphon, both the siphon and OC are wide open. Can you explain why controlling the overflow level via return output operates differently than valving it down on the full siphon?

 

[BeanAnimal]

You are reducing total system flow to balance the siphon, vs balancing the siphon while maintaining full system flow.

Why not just swap the function of the standpipes, as both should have the same basic configuration? One has a valve and the other doesnt. Move the faildafe air intake device to the unvlaved standpipe and use it as the OC and the valves for the siphon.

 

[Overgrown]

You are reducing total system flow to balance the siphon, vs balancing the siphon while maintaining full system flow.

Why not just swap the function of the standpipes, as both should have the same basic configuration? One has a valve and the other doesnt. Move the faildafe air intake device to the unvlaved standpipe and use it as the OC and the valves for the siphon.

As simple as swapping the adapter with the air line turning the OC into the Siphon...
Wow that's impossibly embarrassing..

Thanks.

 

[Brunzy]

What in the world did that guy decide to build you? I would question how 40 socks vs 2 will work haha

 

[uncleof6]

What in the world did that guy decide to build you? I would question how 40 socks vs 2 will work haha

It is marketing strategy (better known as marketing hype.) A lot of time and money goes into keeping hobbyists under the impression that socks are an essential part of a marine system, when they aren't, so it only stands to reason that they would try to convince those same hobbyists that if 1 is good, 40 is better. (or however many.)

Considering the cost of these things, and on another level, the "Dreambox Filter systems" (6,000 euros + or ~ 6400 USD,) that money would better be spent in livestock, high quality test kits (that do not give false results,) equipment that actually works and has some value, and a library of books that explain why much of the marketing hype is nonsense. This hobby is really about knowledge: what you know, not how much you spend on equipment.

 

[ClownsRCoo]

Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

It's gets really old seeing someone being torn down for wanting to splurge on certain things that the majority of reefers don't. The way that filter sock system works is that water flows over each row sequentially. When you have a sock plug up and start to overflow it's obviously not filtering anymore, so the next row is there to catch what is being missed from the second and so on. I can clearly see this when I clean my socks. The first row is filthy while my second row is much less dirty. I would bet money that you use some form of mechanical filtration on your sump and if you don't you would be cleaning detritus out of it a few times a week. Filter sock vs filter floss/sponge filter to me is an argument of preference not superiority. It takes me 5 min twice a week to walk outside and spray off my filter socks. It's much easier and faster than any thick piece of foam I have ever used. I rotate out sets of filter socks each time so I don't have to clean them right that second to keep my filtration going.

Also we are all aware that you can make a DIY sump yourself but not everyone can make one that's pleasing to the eye. Some of us almost like the gadgets and equipment we have as much as the livestock. My stand is open and my sump area is on display. I wouldn't want some 40g Breeder down there with **** poor seams for everyone to see when they come over. You don't know anything about this guy, his interests, or even his setup.

If you want high end, hassle free equipment and also a sump that was built and designed extremely well to house it and maximize functionality then RE is not that bad at all. Try to get any other sump maker to quote apples to apples what RE is providing it won't be much off. I've had a more economical sump from Lifereef which everyone raves about but it was tiny, I had no access to reach or clean anything without removing all my equipment from the sump. The filter pad did almost nothing. There was only 1 drain line hookup and you are SOL for bean animal style. No covers, lots of noise and salt creep and believe me that setup wasn't cheap.

So yeah I'll gladly pay what I paid for my RE system to have a sump that is virtually silent with the filter sock silencers, plenty of room for additional equipment and cleaning, cable holders all around the sump for nice orderly runs of your wiring, clear pvc lids that aren't cheap acrylic that will never yellow or bow with time, arguably the best skimmer in the industry, etc.

Also if this guy had the money to spend what he spent on that sump then I'm pretty sure livestock and equipment aren't going to be an issue for him.


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[vhuang168]

Some like to (and can afford to) drive Bugattis while others feel a Yugo is sufficient to get from point A to point B and sometimes C.

Agreed on if he can afford the Dreambox, livestock n other expenses should not b an issue.

If I already bought all the best test kits and bought AND read all the books, can I then buy a Dreambox without being called a gullible fool?

I don't own a Dreambox, priced it out but didn't want to pay the $1k to have it shipped from Germany. Kinda regretted it. But now that RE USA will be stocking it, I may decide to change over.

I also don't run socks in my system. So I picked the sump with the least number of socks they had.


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[ClownsRCoo]

Exactly... and test kits is the area this clown says you should spend your money? Like I have to save up and cut my tank budget down to account for the $10 difference in test kit prices?!? Get real.

I don't see people bashing Reef Savvy tanks over Marineland? Same premise here. Both hold water and do same basic function. One is made multiple times better than the other, is more visually appealing and has more features but also costs a crap ton more. Where is this guy dissing all of those owners because he feels you can get the same effect with a cheap, clear, sterilite tub.


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