Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[neilp2006]

I saw you said there were flaws- but you didn't exactly say what they are. The hole in the syphon u bend as an example- you said it's a flaw, but didn't explain why. If the hole in the siphon line remains submerged, it isn't really an open line, though, right? If during normal operation, the hole is completely submerged, and doesn't pull air, it's functioning as a syphon line.

Also, i don't think you really answered the main question. If the distance the water has to drop is the same in a BA and an external box type, why do you say that the thin boxes don't have enough head to fully clear air out of the syphon?

Im just trying to understand this setup and partially knowledgeable regarding the history of this thread and the discussions. I don't want to step in any toes, but also would like clarification on some points.

Thanks for your time



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[Swensos]

I am sure this has been answered in this thread and trust me I have searched several ways but could not find an answer...
Has anyone come up with a best method for preventing fish from going over the weir and ending up in the overflow box?

I used screen frame (from my BRS screen top kit) and epoxied it to my frame. It leaves a 1/4" gap above the overflow and a smaller gap between it and the screen top.

I call it the Swensos guard (hoping this is my claim to fame). It keeps out snails and fish, doesn't disrupt the flow of water, and allows me to get my hands in the overflow if needed.

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[Breadman03]

I used screen frame (from my BRS screen top kit) and epoxied it to my frame. It leaves a 1/4" gap above the overflow and a smaller gap between it and the screen top.

I call it the Swensos guard (hoping this is my claim to fame). It keeps out snails and fish, doesn't disrupt the flow of water, and allows me to get my hands in the overflow if needed.

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Swensos guard. Hmmm. I'll have to consider that.

 

[uncleof6]

I saw you said there were flaws- but you didn't exactly say what they are. The hole in the syphon u bend as an example- you said it's a flaw, but didn't explain why. If the hole in the siphon line remains submerged, it isn't really an open line, though, right? If during normal operation, the hole is completely submerged, and doesn't pull air, it's functioning as a syphon line.

During normal operation, when properly setup, the top of the siphon line should NOT be submerged. The water line should be somewhere in the upper half of the elbow, but not above it.

Also, i don't think you really answered the main question. If the distance the water has to drop is the same in a BA and an external box type, why do you say that the thin boxes don't have enough head to fully clear air out of the syphon?

Not speaking of the "drop height" am speaking of the water level above the weir (point where water starts heading down) in the siphon elbow. Am not speaking of "thin" boxes am speaking of "short" boxes, with insufficient room above the siphon. That, together with the absence of the air vent line tubing, caused the problem with the Synergy/Ghost overflow, and all similar designs. The water level needs to reach a certain height, before the open channel engages (the air vent becomes submerged,) or the system will not start properly. Raising the open channel did not solve the issue, so Synergy made further modifications to get it too work. If they had made a box that would accommodate the system as designed (or at least kept the relationships and features the same) there would be no problems with the system, and others would not have the same problems either. It is not really rocket science. The difference between the down turned elbow and the upturned elbow on the dry emergency (all on the same level; e.g. not raised,) is all the height needed, without engaging the open channel. You have to have both conditions, or the start will be delayed or air locked...

Im just trying to understand this setup and partially knowledgeable regarding the history of this thread and the discussions. I don't want to step in any toes, but also would like clarification on some points.

You are not stepping on toes. I have just explained it a hundred times, if I explained it once. The explanation is always the same; consistent. This is part of the basic trouble shooting steps, almost from day 1. It follows right after the "pipe outlets being too deep in the sump (over 1")" and just before air leaks in the siphon line. There are no mysteries here, and a very finite number of possible issues, and the solutions are always the same: adhering to the design principles that were not adhered to in the first place.

Thanks for your time



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[Xenaph]

I post earlier without any answer, when i'm connected i see my post and unconnected i don't see it.

It is not the point and i hope someone can say if my craftsman do the thing well with my next custom tank.

He want lower the glass where are the overflow box to let the water go in like a fall.s

Here a video explain it and want a BA in there with 3 1" pipe. The box dimension will be 10" Long x 3 3/8" width x 8" hight

coast to coast overflow

Does it work ?

 

[mike810]

Is there a problem if the drain lines terminate 3-4" below the water line? I had a sump made and requested the drain lines end 1" below the water line but instead it ends 3-4" below the water line. Now I cannot remove the drains to cut it shorter. I'm worried the back pressure might interfere with the full siphon.

 

[neilp2006]

Is there a problem if the drain lines terminate 3-4" below the water line? I had a sump made and requested the drain lines end 1" below the water line but instead it ends 3-4" below the water line. Now I cannot remove the drains to cut it shorter. I'm worried the back pressure might interfere with the full siphon.

Yeah, it might not be possible for all of the air in the syphon line to purge completely, making if impossible to create a true syphon.

If you really can't get in there to cut them back, can you at least drill a bunch of large diameter holes one inch below the water level? That'll help purge those aid bubbles




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[mike810]

Here is my problem, the sump is a dream box and once assembled, the drain compartment is completely sealed off. I'd need some type of angle drill bit to drill holes in the drain pipe

 

[uncleof6]

Here is my problem, the sump is a dream box and once assembled, the drain compartment is completely sealed off. I'd need some type of angle drill bit to drill holes in the drain pipe

Outlet depth > 1" will effect the starting of the system, and the system may well not start at all and simply air lock. Drilling holes in the drain lines may work, but there is no promise that it will do so.

Without access, it's pretty much a done deal. Obviously, the sump builder did NOT follow your wishes and design criteria. Rather applied their "own thoughts" without regard to your request. This puts solving the problem squarely on the shoulders of the builder of the sump. I would be on the phone with them, to determine why they ignored your request, or whether or not it is even possible for them to do so, (I don't expect sump builders to know much of anything about drain system requirements) rather than trying to find a hack to make it work.

Looks like an "interesting" sump, however way too complicated and completely unnecessary. Simple sumps work better, and are very much less of a hassle—and less money invested. I seldom (if ever) recommend purchasing a manufactured/commercial built sump. They "look cool," but that is about where it ends. The number of socks (or what appear to be socks) in that thing, is off the hook! 40 breeder, 3 baffles, and call it good.

 

[pfoxgrover]

Mike810,
Can you get those unions off and replace the length of pipe below them? That seems like a solution.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Wow... does that thing fly or make pancakes?

My honest nickel? Overpriced silliness.

"...completely sealed off"

And maybe bafflingly (pun?) over-engineered to a fault.

 

[ClownsRCoo]

Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

Is there a problem if the drain lines terminate 3-4" below the water line? I had a sump made and requested the drain lines end 1" below the water line but instead it ends 3-4" below the water line. Now I cannot remove the drains to cut it shorter. I'm worried the back pressure might interfere with the full siphon.

It's not going to effect the drains abilities at all. I have a dreambox too and it works just fine. It's annoying having to take it from metric to US plumbing but other than that you will be fine.



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[uncleof6]

It's not going to effect the drains abilities at all. I have a dreambox too and it works just fine. It's annoying having to take it from metric to US plumbing but other than that you will be fine.
View attachment 371827


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Yes it does affect the drains abilities. Several years of testing, trouble shooting, and solving problems have shown (proven) that outlets terminating more than 1" below the water level in the sump can and does prevent this system (and any other siphon system) from starting up properly, or not allowing the system to start up at all. The physics are the physics. The Dream box cannot beat the physics, nor can anything else.

 

[ClownsRCoo]

Ok well you can see plain as day I also have a dreambox and it's working just fine. It may take a little longer than yours to purge the air from the system but it runs a full siphon with no problems. Thanks for telling me how my system should run but I'm trying to tell this guy who needs to hear first hand experience that he's going to be fine.


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[BeanAnimal]

Ok well you can see plain as day I also have a dreambox and it's working just fine. It may take a little longer than yours to purge the air from the system but it runs a full siphon with no problems. Thanks for telling me how my system should run but I'm trying to tell this guy who needs to hear first hand experience that he's going to be fine.


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In fact, he may not be fine. The ability for the siphon standpipe to overcome the head pressure and purge the air is dependent on several variables. These include flow rate, vertical head, piping configuration, intake configuration, etc.

Like every aspect of this system, there is a reason for the published spec. Systems built outside of that design spec may or may not operate as expected. That is the point that Jim was trying to make.

 

[Overgrown]

Question: I've been running this system for years and just embarked on a new build, but apparently got laxadaisical and plumbed a gate onto my open channel standpipe instead of my siphon.(I only run one valve, usually on my siphon)

The system seems to be operating properly but I'm just wondering if I should cut some pipe and add in a gate to the siphon. Attached is a photo of what's going on in my open channel.
Any thoughts on if that amount of water in the pipe looks to be appropriate, and if it is falling down the pipe appropriately as well. I could tune the valve on the OC to get more of a "spiral" down the walls, but then that will, if i understand correctly, mess with its potential siphon capabilites in the event of a clog on the full siphon standpipe.

Thanks

 

[Swensos]

You need a gate or ball valve on your siphon channel so that you can tune the overflow to your flow. Cut the pipe and add the gate valve. The open channel can have a gate valve, which might be nice for maintenance, but it must be open all the way.


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[Overgrown]

You need a gate or ball valve on your siphon channel so that you can tune the overflow to your flow. Cut the pipe and add the gate valve. The open channel can have a gate valve, which might be nice for maintenance, but it must be open all the way.


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Right. In previous systems I had a gate on the siphon, and as mentioned this time around I accidentally plumbed it on the OC. But I notice with this orientation that I can still control the level in my C2C overflow with the gate on the output of the return pump, and since I don't have a gate on my siphon, both the siphon and OC are wide open. Can you explain why controlling the overflow level via return output operates differently than valving it down on the full siphon?

 

[BeanAnimal]

You are reducing total system flow to balance the siphon, vs balancing the siphon while maintaining full system flow.

Why not just swap the function of the standpipes, as both should have the same basic configuration? One has a valve and the other doesnt. Move the faildafe air intake device to the unvlaved standpipe and use it as the OC and the valves for the siphon.

 

[Overgrown]

You are reducing total system flow to balance the siphon, vs balancing the siphon while maintaining full system flow.

Why not just swap the function of the standpipes, as both should have the same basic configuration? One has a valve and the other doesnt. Move the faildafe air intake device to the unvlaved standpipe and use it as the OC and the valves for the siphon.

As simple as swapping the adapter with the air line turning the OC into the Siphon...
Wow that's impossibly embarrassing..

Thanks.