Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[uncleof6]

It's gets really old seeing someone being torn down for wanting to splurge on certain things that the majority of reefers don't. The way that filter sock system works is that water flows over each row sequentially. When you have a sock plug up and start to overflow it's obviously not filtering anymore, so the next row is there to catch what is being missed from the second and so on. I can clearly see this when I clean my socks. The first row is filthy while my second row is much less dirty. I would bet money that you use some form of mechanical filtration on your sump and if you don't you would be cleaning detritus out of it a few times a week. Filter sock vs filter floss/sponge filter to me is an argument of preference not superiority. It takes me 5 min twice a week to walk outside and spray off my filter socks. It's much easier and faster than any thick piece of foam I have ever used. I rotate out sets of filter socks each time so I don't have to clean them right that second to keep my filtration going.

Also we are all aware that you can make a DIY sump yourself but not everyone can make one that's pleasing to the eye. Some of us almost like the gadgets and equipment we have as much as the livestock. My stand is open and my sump area is on display. I wouldn't want some 40g Breeder down there with **** poor seams for everyone to see when they come over. You don't know anything about this guy, his interests, or even his setup.

If you want high end, hassle free equipment and also a sump that was built and designed extremely well to house it and maximize functionality then RE is not that bad at all. Try to get any other sump maker to quote apples to apples what RE is providing it won't be much off. I've had a more economical sump from Lifereef which everyone raves about but it was tiny, I had no access to reach or clean anything without removing all my equipment from the sump. The filter pad did almost nothing. There was only 1 drain line hookup and you are SOL for bean animal style. No covers, lots of noise and salt creep and believe me that setup wasn't cheap.

So yeah I'll gladly pay what I paid for my RE system to have a sump that is virtually silent with the filter sock silencers, plenty of room for additional equipment and cleaning, cable holders all around the sump for nice orderly runs of your wiring, clear pvc lids that aren't cheap acrylic that will never yellow or bow with time, arguably the best skimmer in the industry, etc.

Also if this guy had the money to spend what he spent on that sump then I'm pretty sure livestock and equipment aren't going to be an issue for him.


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Put quite simply, socks (or any other form of mechanical filtration) should not be left in a system to the point they become clogged, requiring the use of a back-up (or multiple back-ups.) Leaving such material in the system, causes the dissolved organic levels to raise sharply, often within just a matter of hours; this contributes to things such as low oxygen levels, heterotrophic bacterial blooms that can be lethal to other tank members, and higher nitrate levels. Invariably these things are blamed on some mysterious cause creating a considerable amount of reading material, and folks go out looking for other means to control the nitrates, phosphates what-have-you. It only becomes more complicated because mechanical filter media, (of any type) cannot remove the real problem in marine systems: dissolved organics. Mechanical filter media only exacerbates the problem, especially if it is not cleaned every day.

So what we have here is an expensive piece of equipment that encourages very poor maintenance practices, by the very description of it that you have provided. We have all been a "victim" of marketing hype, none of us has been completely immune from it. So we are all "foolish" and "gullible;" singling someone out as such is not the point here, and is not the intention. Knowledge is. Marketers take advantage of the lack thereof, in order to take your money.

BTW, the simple sumps that I have built in my time (30 something years) are silent, for the most part maintenance free, have no need of additional equipment, service a whole lot of water, at flow rates above 2000gph—and cost pennies on the dollar compared to any commercial sump. What you say about it is aesthetics, not actual function. That does not make you or anyone else less, just means I look to the function of a piece of equipment and health benefit to the system.

 

[vhuang168]

So just to be clear, you are saying that mechanical filtration of any kind is marketing hype?


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[saf1]

So just to be clear, you are saying that mechanical filtration of any kind is marketing hype?


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No - that isn't what he said. I'd suggest you go back and re-read what was written.

 

[vhuang168]

No - that isn't what he said. I'd suggest you go back and re-read what was written.

I have read it. Many times. He makes a couple of points in regards to mechanical filtration and I want to nail down which part does he attribute to marketing hype.

Since you seem to know, want to elaborate?


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[saf1]

I have read it. Many times. He makes a couple of points in regards to mechanical filtration and I want to nail down which part does he attribute to marketing hype.

Since you seem to know, want to elaborate?


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Maybe you should try again then. Post #9346, second paragraph. Pretty clear to me that he is talking about maintenance practices and everyone, at one time or another, falling for marketing hype.

Maybe you are reading too much into it or taking it personal?

 

[vhuang168]

Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

If I am taking it personally, you'll know. For 1, I won't be asking questions for clarification.

He made a statement regarding a sump that I feel is well engineered as marketing hype.

The following statement contains a few points but nothing concrete as to what exactly is the hype.

If he wants to share his knowledge and educate others, in happy to learn.

But if he wants to change my mind about something then he has to PROVE that my thinking is wrong.

Asking questions is how I choose to distill what exactly he is trying to say is marketing hype.

If he is prepared to make statements that challenge other's thinking, then be prepared for other to challenge back and try to poke holes in his statement.



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[Overgrown]

Lots of the perpetually and professionally offended in here it seems. Infiltrating even the most obscure corners of life, including the reef hobby. How quaint. In an effort to steer it back on topic, just wondering why I'm having flow issues with my open channel now. This has gotta be the 5th Bean system I've plumbed, all others with no issues. Not sure why I'm having issues with this one. Please advise. I moved the cap with the airline over to my open channel at the recommendation of BA, and while the system is "working," the open channel is taking on a ton of flow. My siphon is operating smoothly. Just wondering why there's so much turbulence in the open channel. See attached photos.From left to right: emergency drain(dry), open channel, full siphon. Note the massive amount of air/ flow from the open channel. Perhaps I need to valve down my return pump? ( which id rather not if I don't have to)
Thanks in advance.

 

[saf1]

If I am taking it personally, you'll know. For 1, I won't be asking questions for clarification.

He made a statement regarding a sump that I feel is well engineered as marketing hype.

The following statement contains a few points but nothing concrete as to what exactly is the hype.

If he wants to share his knowledge and educate others, in happy to learn.

But if he wants to change my mind about something then he has to PROVE that my thinking is wrong.

Asking questions is how I choose to distill what exactly he is trying to say is marketing hype.

If he is prepared to make statements that challenge other's thinking, then be prepared for other to challenge back and try to poke holes in his statement.



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Then you are looking for an argument and I can't help you. To me it was pretty clear what he said. So maybe it is me. Fair enough? He shares his knowledge in this thread countless times. Feel free to go back any number of pages. People may not like the answer or agree but the design and function is what it is. Anything outside of it, modification or otherwise, makes it no longer a Beananimal. Therefore, not guaranteed to work as designed.

To me, it is as simple as that.

 

[vhuang168]

Then you are looking for an argument and I can't help you. To me it was pretty clear what he said. So maybe it is me. Fair enough? He shares his knowledge in this thread countless times. Feel free to go back any number of pages. People may not like the answer or agree but the design and function is what it is. Anything outside of it, modification or otherwise, makes it no longer a Beananimal. Therefore, not guaranteed to work as designed.

To me, it is as simple as that.

I prefer a discussion.

Or are you saying that since he says it is, it becomes fact and I should roll over and accept it? Or I should move on and disregard what he says because I don't agree? Or should I try to find out as much information from him as I can so I can make an informed decision?

I have no problems with him. I appreciate the help he has given here and I run a BA on my system and recommend it to others whenever possible. Helping them set it up. Mine is setup differently but works well. No complaints.

But I am NOT talking about a BA drain system here. Its his assertion that (I think) the Dreambox is marketing hype. I'm trying to nail down what exactly is the hype? The mechanical filtration, the multiple socks? And why EXACTLY.

And as a disclaimer, I don't run socks. So multiple or single sock makes no matter to me.

 

[Overgrown]

I prefer a discussion.

Or are you saying that since he says it is, it becomes fact and I should roll over and accept it? Or I should move on and disregard what he says because I don't agree? Or should I try to find out as much information from him as I can so I can make an informed decision?

I have no problems with him. I appreciate the help he has given here and I run a BA on my system and recommend it to others whenever possible. Helping them set it up. Mine is setup differently but works well. No complaints.

But I am NOT talking about a BA drain system here. Its his assertion that (I think) the Dreambox is marketing hype. I'm trying to nail down what exactly is the hype? The mechanical filtration, the multiple socks? And why EXACTLY.

And as a disclaimer, I don't run socks. So multiple or single sock makes no matter to me.

The discussion you seek isn't one for the confines of the silent and failsafe overflow thread.

 

[Rybren]

... Please advise. I moved the cap with the airline over to my open channel at the recommendation of BA, and while the system is "working," the open channel is taking on a ton of flow. My siphon is operating smoothly. Just wondering why there's so much turbulence in the open channel. See attached photos.From left to right: emergency drain(dry), open channel, full siphon. Note the massive amount of air/ flow from the open channel. Perhaps I need to valve down my return pump? ( which id rather not if I don't have to)
Thanks in advance.

Have you tried slightly opening the valve on the siphon line to allow more water through the siphon and less through the OC? In my experience, it can be tricky to find the sweet spot where the flow is 'just right'. On mine, it took a lot of playing with the ball valve on the initial setup.

Because I'm too lazy to look back , what size bulkheads and pipes are you using, and what is the flow rate of your pump?

 

[uncleof6]

Overgrown:

Shut the system down. Open the valve on the siphon all the way, open the valve on the pump all the way. Make sure you drain lines are clear. Remedial perhaps, but check the system over for any differences between this one and previous systems.

Power up the system and watch what happens. When the water level in the overflow box drops suddenly, close the valve on the siphon till water just flows in the open channel. E.G. rather than try to mess with any current adjustment, start over from scratch.

Assuming you have not made any of the classic implementation errors, it sounds to me like it is just way out of adjustment, and the open channel is just behaving like the Durso it is: over 1/4 full of water, and it goes turbulent.

If there is a pump size issue, it will become pretty obvious with the system being overpowered (e.g. water level just keeps rising.) I doubt that is the issue here.

Rybren: Next time out, try a gate valve rather than a ball valve. Ball valves are great for on/off operation, but flow control should be accomplished with gate valves. That is what they are for. Although with just a course adjustment (ball valve) this system will work, you will find it easier to find the sweet spot with a gate valve.

 

[Overgrown]

Uof6: I just did the troubleshooting you suggested. Let it stabilize and here's where I'm at. I've got a solid strong siphon(pictured far right) but as you can see still have a ton of turbulence out of the open channel(middle) although it's pulling substantially less water than the full siphon. Which is hard to tell from the photo. Something else possibly noteworthy is that the open channel settles down when I remove the airline from the push lock valve on top of the cap. Why would that be?

Both my open channel and full siphon terminate about a half inch into the water line.

 

[uncleof6]

Uof6: I just did the troubleshooting you suggested. Let it stabilize and here's where I'm at. I've got a solid strong siphon(pictured far right) but as you can see still have a ton of turbulence out of the open channel(middle) although it's pulling substantially less water than the full siphon. Which is hard to tell from the photo. Something else possibly noteworthy is that the open channel settles down when I remove the airline from the push lock valve on top of the cap. Why would that be?

Both my open channel and full siphon terminate about a half inch into the water line.

Where is the water level in the overflow box? Possibly in transitional flow, (heading to siphon) kink/partial occulsion in the air vent line... just thinking...

 

[Overgrown]

Where is the water level in the overflow box? Possibly in transitional flow, (heading to siphon) kink/partial occulsion in the air vent line... just thinking...

Water level is right at the top of the downturned Ell's. And the bottom of the downturned Ell's is approx 3/4".(not sure if that's relevant)

Only other thing I can think of is that I couldn't find 1.5" street 90's so I went with 2" ABS and used transition cement and adapted them down. Is it possible that the 2" street elbows to the 1.5" are causing issues?

 

[Overgrown]

Water level

 

[Rybren]

Rybren: Next time out, try a gate valve rather than a ball valve. Ball valves are great for on/off operation, but flow control should be accomplished with gate valves. That is what they are for. Although with just a course adjustment (ball valve) this system will work, you will find it easier to find the sweet spot with a gate valve.

Yeah, I found out the hard way :headwallblue: and I'm too lazy to swap the ball valve out. It works fine once you get the hang of it.

 

[uncleof6]

Water level

You had a thought that the flow rate from the pump was too much for the system. A 1.5" line with a 1.5" bulkhead, should be able to handle ~3000gph (allowing 20% friction loss) @ 24" drop, and greater @ 36" drop. Of course a 1" bulkhead would allow ~1500gph at a 24" inch drop. The question here would be what size bulkheads, and what is the pump actually able to send up to the tank (realistically; not what the flow chart says.)

The sanitary tee really does not have much affect on the system. It reduces turbulence in the tee as opposed to a "straight" tee, but that is about it. Larger size, and ABS should not have any negative impact. Just FYI: Spears, Nibco, and Charlotte Pipe and Foundry make sch 40 DWV sanitary tees in 1.25" and larger. A wise LFS that caters to high end reef systems, should carry them, but they generally do not. There is a LFS in San Diego that used too, not sure if they still do. They (1.5") are pretty easy to find online however, but not at Home Depot or other big box stores.

Remedial refresher:

As you know, a Durso, (what the open channel is) only handles so much flow. For a 1.5" it is somewhere around 350gph or so, or the point when the water in the pipe occupies more than 1/4 of the cross-sectional area. So, the reason the open channel is bubbling away is because it is handling too much of the total flow.

The balance needs to be shifted back toward the siphon, and the flow reduced in the open channel. To reduce the flow in the open channel, you need to lower the water level in the overflow, with the valve on the siphon, which will in turn increase the flow in the siphon.

Water in the open channel will start flowing when the water level reaches the point in the TEE, where the water heads down. This point is BELOW the horizontal center line of the elbow. (perpendicular to the main drain line.) The only height needed above that is that which will maintain the siphon. E.G. prevent a vortex from forming at the siphon inlet.

As you can tell, I am still seeing this as an adjustment issue, because so far I haven't heard of or seen any issue with the drain system itself, other than too much flow in the open channel. That equals water level. (or siphon not fully started, related to implementation errors that I am not seeing in this case.)

 

[BeanAnimal]

I prefer a discussion.

Please take it someplace else

This thread is for the support of an overflow system.

Tangential comments and cordial conversation are certainly welcome, but outright debates where one or more participants are willfully committing intellectual dishonesty for the sole purposes of perpetuating a fight are not.

If you guys want to beat each other up over RE sumps, then by all means start a thread in the equipment forum and go for it.

 

[Ted_C]

Extra Drain on the Beananimal design

Extra Drain on the Beananimal design

Update on my overflow:

I know this is no longer a beananimal design since I have 4 drains instead of three - but I did want to send shoutouts out to Bean and Uncle for all of their great advice in this thread. That advice allowed me to achieve my desired result of a silent overflow with lots of turnover flow in my 310.

My modification to the beananimal design is an extra gated siphon drain to help alleviate what the regular bean animal couldn't handle.

I am running two DC12000's at around 70% of maximum flow. I figure I am getting ~ 4K GPH Turnover. I have been running this since March 11th of this year.

My drains terminate around 3 inches under the surface. I drilled 1/2" holes in the pipe 1" below the water surface to ensure the siphon could start up (Since these are in filter socks - I wanted the pipes to terminate in a smooth surface to not rip up the filter socks so much).

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