Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[uncleof6]

Does anyone who's already running this system feel that the bubble baffle in the sump is no longer needed with this setup?

Depends on whether your skimmer spits bubbles out, or not. The drain system, when properly setup does not create bubbles. Bubble problems with this drain system: Flow too high through the open channel, a suction vortex at the full siphon inlet, or air leaks in the full siphon. Bean can probably come up with a couple others....

Jim

 

[robojet]

Internal vs External

Internal vs External

I've read through much of the post, and I understand the principles. I think I can implement this overflow, but I'm getting caught up on an internal overflow vs. an external overflow. I can't seem to make up my mind!

If I get all this...
An internal overflow is: easier to setup, less risk to have a leak
An external overflow: frees up your tank space; would I still drill 3 1.5 inch holes for this implementation? (I have a crazy fear the plumbing will stress this and pull it right off the back)

So, since I'll be ordering a custom tank, I have the ability to decide how I want to do this. I need to go back and review how some others implemented an external (I concentrated on internal when I read originally).


I could sure use some help making this decision!

 

[akindbro4u]

either i missed it, or no body is using them, but how would you do this with filter socks. I thought i read somewhere that bean said he would have incorporated them.

 

[uncleof6]

I've read through much of the post, and I understand the principles. I think I can implement this overflow, but I'm getting caught up on an internal overflow vs. an external overflow. I can't seem to make up my mind!

If I get all this...
An internal overflow is: easier to setup, less risk to have a leak
An external overflow: frees up your tank space; would I still drill 3 1.5 inch holes for this implementation? (I have a crazy fear the plumbing will stress this and pull it right off the back)

So, since I'll be ordering a custom tank, I have the ability to decide how I want to do this. I need to go back and review how some others implemented an external (I concentrated on internal when I read originally).


I could sure use some help making this decision!

Regardless of whether an internal or external overflow, there needs to be a way to get the water from the inside to the outside. In any either scenario, there will be holes in the back of the tank. With the internal, of course the bulkheads go in the holes, and the standpipes attach to the bulkheads.

With an external, the standpipes attach to the overflow itself, but there would still need to be a "weir" separating the standpipes from the water in the DT. Short of lowering the rear panel of the tank, holes, slots what have you would need to be cut in the tank back, and a weir put in front of this. In the case of an acrylic tank, there are a couple of other options.

In any case, the plumbing needs to be firmly held in position (as all plumbing should be to begin with) and this would minimize the breaking/pulling off risk, though it is never eliminated.

An external implementation:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1733011

Jim

 

[madkeenreefer]

Hi Bean,

I have a basement sump which is a 5'drop 14' vertical run and another 4' drop away.
I read you suggested that the ball valves should be at the end points close to the sump but I never found a poster who posted their successes with this predicament.
would you have any advise for me before I comence.
Thanks in Advance
Madkeen reefer

Anybody got a BEan running to a basement? Approx 12-head/ return.
love to know how its working and or if you did anythink to the system to tweak it

 

[ORayRay]

75g set-up

75g set-up

alright, Ive read about this overflow for the past month and have decided it will be the best fit for my 75g reef, I will be using 1" bulkheads and wanted to use 1" piping, but they don't make a sanitary t that small, so here is where im at either using the 1" standard T like this

i know the bulkhead is backwards

or using adapters to go from 1.5" to 1" like this

the reason im asking is because im sure the sanitary t has a higher flow rating, but will it be enough to notice a difference? is it noisier?
anyone got any ideas?

 

[troylee]

i like the 2nd pic better thats how i ran mine except i use 1.5" plumbing from the sanitary tee down....better flow that way...

 

[uncleof6]

alright, Ive read about this overflow for the past month and have decided it will be the best fit for my 75g reef, I will be using 1" bulkheads and wanted to use 1" piping, but they don't make a sanitary t that small, so here is where im at either using the 1" standard T like this

i know the bulkhead is backwards

or using adapters to go from 1.5" to 1" like this

the reason im asking is because im sure the sanitary t has a higher flow rating, but will it be enough to notice a difference? is it noisier?
anyone got any ideas?

Bean's system used 1" bulkheads, w/1.25" street ells inside the tank, and all 1.5" plumbing outside. I think were the straight Tee would have the greatest affect, would be in the open channel standpipe, as the sanitary tee's flow will be less turbulent. I wouldn't go through all those adapters and such, once out of the tank, keep it all one size or the other.

Jim

 

[JTL]

FWIW, I used 1" bulkheads and 1 1/4 inch pipe and fittings on Bean's system and it works great. Once and a while I have to adjust the flow if I make some equipment changes but other than that it is flawless.

I put baffles in my sump between the skimmer section and the return section and I am not even sure they are necessary. No bubbles from the overflow that I can see and the skimmer is not producing any.

 

[Mr Coffee]

I have 1" bulkheads and am using 1 1/2" PVC for the pipes. I wanted the sanitary T's as close as possible to the bulkhead and struggled with this until I decided to boar out the inside of some 1 1/2" pvc pipe and it fits on perfectly now. The Sanitary T is right up on the bulkhead it looks great and fits close enough that I am happy with it. I am using a type 1 silicone bead where the PVC joins to the bulkhead.
We will see how this works. If any one sees a real issue with it please let me know.

Thanks every one for this incredible thread.

 

[tmerrick]

I have looked thru most of this thread, but havent seen many retrofit this into a factory reef ready overflow. I have dual corner overflows, I assume I would be able to divide up these 3 components over 2 boxes and then still have 1 extra hole to duplicate a pipe?
1) Emergency standpipe
2) Siphon standpipe
3) Open channel standpipe
4) Siphon standpipe

 

[BeanAnimal]

I have a question regarding the sump with this design.

I am planning on making my sump with a skimmer section, a return section in the center, and a refugium. (Very similar to most). So all my pipes will drain into the skimmer section.

Are the bubble trap baffles needed since there should be no bubbles from the drain lines? (Do I have to worry about the bubbles created by the skimmer?)

You may still want a baffle or two to help eliminate bubbles from the skimmer output. While my setup can run bubble free, depending on adjustment you may see a small amount of bubbles at the end of the open channel standpipe but nowhwere near as many as with a durso or similar setup.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Trying to figure out where I might be drawing air in my silent/failsafe setup. Its been running great for the last few months, but in the last couple weeks I notice a small surge of air bubbles every 30 seconds or so in my primary siphon...its nothing that I see as serious but considering I had perfect flow for so long, I'm wondering where this could be coming from...I don't have any salt creep in any of my connections so I can't find anywhere where air could be leaking in. Its strange because its not a constant draw of air but almost like a burp every 30 seconds or so...lasts for 2 seconds and then is gone until the next one.

Could there be air creeping in on my ball valve even though there is no evidence of salt creep?

The vacuum created by the falling water is fairly strong so you will not likely see salt creep around a leak. However, such a leak would likely create a continuous stream of bubbles, unless it is in the CAP section above the water line. Check there...

Secondly, bubble may be being drawn in from the siphon intake and slowely collecting in the CAP area and growing until the pocket is large enough to get sucked into the siphon stream.

Lastly, it could be cavitation... but lets not go there until you ensure that there are no leaks and/or small bubbles are not being sucked in.

 

[BeanAnimal]

bean,

would 2" pipes be better for a bigger tank or will the 1.5" pipes do? this is for a 1900+ gph return pump.

thanks.

1.5" pipes will be fine. 2" will be fine also, if you can fit them in. You may want to place the siphon ball vavle as low as you can with such a large pipe. This will help ensure the siphon is well regulated. Within reason, the larger the open channel and emergency standpipe, the better. The 1.5" siphon is plenty for your desired flow rate.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Hi Bean,
I have finnished researching your thread ( I think every Q? has been asked lol) the search button is a great tool!
From what I have now come to belive is that the SFOS is not going to opperate with maximum performance/scilence with a basement positioned sumps because of the long drops and long lineal footages.
I was looking for these answers as I to have a basement sump which is a 5'drop 14' vertical run and another 4' drop away.
I read you suggested that the ball valves should be at the end points close to the sump but I never found a poster who posted their successes with this predicament.
would you have any advise for me before I comence.
Thanks in Advance
Madkeen reefer

The open channel standpipe may not act like a true open channel, depending on the slope and diameter. Use the largest diameter pipe you can for the open channel. A 9' drop is going to create a fairly strong siphon... what flow rates are you looking for?

 

[BeanAnimal]

I have a 180g 72"x24"x24" tank with a standard overflow in the center, 5"w x 4.5"d x 24" tall (inside the tank) with a 1" bulkhead at the bottom also has a ½" bulkhead currently capped that I don't plan on using unless you see a use. I have a Durso now that extends up to about 3" from the teeth of the overflow, I also drilled a 1-1/4" backup drain about even/below the teeth from the back of the tank.
My plan,
I want to substantially increase my flow (from 900gph) and incorporate the silent drain. Could I"¦..remove the Durso and replace with 1" up to about 5" from the teeth as the siphon, drill from the back, at or slightly above and offset another 1" as the second drain and use the existing 1-1/4" above as the third (I would still have room for another 1" again offset a little and above as the third). They would line up close to your design, just head in different directions ending at the same place.
Last
Before I get the drill and hole saw out and head for the 180 I have built a "œoverflow simulator", an exact replica of my 5"x 4.5"x 24" tall overflow with the 1" bulkhead at the bottom, inside a 8"x 6"x24" "œtank" staged above a sump/tub to test this before drilling any holes in my tank, I plan on pumping in about 2000gph to test. I have drilled the second drain in but not the third. I realize that most of the noise from this type of overflow will come from the water falling into the box, (that's why I raised the durso up to the top)
For your thoughts on this
Thanks

Sounds reasonable... but a picture or drawing would help.

 

[BeanAnimal]

BeanAnimal:

I'm going to go with the Eheim 1262 for a return pump (tee'd off to the Fuge and possibly throttled back using a ball valve), and Koralia's (I have them sitting in the closet) in the DT for added flow if needed.

Also considering the Oceanmotion Squirt 2 way.

Next question is the use of an Elbows in the Siphon pipe. I wanted to use a 45, but my rear stand brace and the position of my sump/hang-on skimmer (Turboflotor Multi SL) restrict me a bit.

Will it cause an issue using just the 1 Elbow, or should I use elbows on all the pipes? I think the answer is to use elbows for all the pipes (cleaner looking), and I did see them used in a previous post on all plumbing.

As far as the Calfo, I will be going the entire length of the tank, 36" x 2 3/4" x ??
How far below the bottom of the intake (siphon) elbow do I need to be? I thought I had seen this answer somewhere, but cannot find it for the life of me.

Thanks for your replies, I'm looking forward to not hearing the drains :lol2:

/D

Elbows are fine for the siphon standpipe. The open channel should be as much of a straight shot as possible.. though a few bends are ok.

The overflow box should be large enough to work in. You need to be able to work with the elbows and or clean the box.

You can't go wrong with an Oceans Motions. The SQUIRT is a great product and Paul (the inventor and owner) is one of the kindest most customer service oriented business owners I have ever had the pleasure to deal with.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I've read through much of the post, and I understand the principles. I think I can implement this overflow, but I'm getting caught up on an internal overflow vs. an external overflow. I can't seem to make up my mind!

If I get all this...
An internal overflow is: easier to setup, less risk to have a leak
An external overflow: frees up your tank space; would I still drill 3 1.5 inch holes for this implementation? (I have a crazy fear the plumbing will stress this and pull it right off the back)

So, since I'll be ordering a custom tank, I have the ability to decide how I want to do this. I need to go back and review how some others implemented an external (I concentrated on internal when I read originally).


I could sure use some help making this decision!

The external box will be fed by either holes are a long slit (or shortened back panel). It does not hang from the plumbing, it is attached to the tank's back panel. The external box would be fed from a much narrower internal box. This is so that you still get the surface skimming benefits of a large overflow weir.

An internal overflow box takes up tank realestate... an external does not. Your room layout, stand layout and tank style will dictate what type of overflow will work for you.

 

[BeanAnimal]

either i missed it, or no body is using them, but how would you do this with filter socks. I thought i read somewhere that bean said he would have incorporated them.

You would simple place your siphon and open channel pipe exits into your filter sock holder, compartment or whatever. How you eliminate noise from falling water and/or facilitate sock change out is up to you.

I designed a holding tray that would be incorporated into the SIDE of my sump, but never got around to implementing the design. I never did a CAD drawing... just a quick sketch on graph paper. It is long lost in my pile of notepads... notebooks and other crap.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I have 1" bulkheads and am using 1 1/2" PVC for the pipes. I wanted the sanitary T's as close as possible to the bulkhead and struggled with this until I decided to boar out the inside of some 1 1/2" pvc pipe and it fits on perfectly now. The Sanitary T is right up on the bulkhead it looks great and fits close enough that I am happy with it. I am using a type 1 silicone bead where the PVC joins to the bulkhead.
We will see how this works. If any one sees a real issue with it please let me know.

Thanks every one for this incredible thread.

Photos?

Why did you not use a bushing instead of trying to make one?