Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[BeanAnimal]

The ONLY valve that should be "adjusted" is the valve on the SIPHON standpipe. That standpipe has no air openings. The second pipe (the open channel) should have its valve wide open and it should also have an air opening at the top.

 

[scott26]

Nice set up Peter I hope to have something like that some day as my main tank! lol.

 

[Jgoal55]

Bean,

Thanks so much for your help throughout this thread. I had a couple of other minor questions that I didn't want to bog this thread down with so I posted them on my local forum and sure enough between the both threads I FINALLY got the overflow perfectly adjusted and SILENT!!!!

I figure for everyones benefit, I'll list the things I did wrong so that others can avoid them.

1) Before you glue the last sections of pipe that go into your sump, make sure you note the sumps maximum water level so that you can be sure the pipes don't extend too far into the sump. Mine were in about 1.5" and the system would not start correctly. I had to cut the plumbing and put it back together with a coupling. Had I not glued them before checking the max water level, I could have just slipped that last section off and then cut and then glue.

I ended up reducing all 3 pipes to only go into the sump about 1/4". That helped the system start correctly.

2) Though unnecessary, I would suggest raising the secondary durso just a tad over the main channel siphon. This will help ensure that the main channel starts first. While you don't have to do this, my take on it is that since it can't hurt, you might as well.

3) Waterfall noise: This may have been my dumbest mistake. Once I got the drains working correctly, I had to deal with the "waterfall noise" caused obviously by the water draining into my external overflow box. I only had about 3" of water in the overflow box and the lip of the weir was another 4" above the water line in the box. Hence, the waterfall noise.

I tried to adjust the water level in the box by tuning the main channel siphon gate valve. The problem with this was that to get the water level to rise another 3.5" I had to close the gate valve soooo much that water would start flowing heavily down the secondary durso causing loudness.

So the lesson I learned is too make sure that your pipes are high enough in your overflow box. Primarily, your secondary durso. Once I raised the height of all 3 pipes, I was able to raise the water level in the overflow box w/ out tuning the gate valve too much, thus eliminating the water fall noise and keeping the secondary durso virtually dry.

4) The secondary durso does not need to run 100% dry. It is ok if it has a tiny bit of water running through it. I am not sure about this, but IME I noticed (again with the help of a fellow FMAS member) that when I tried to completely eliminate water falling into the secondary durso by adjusting the gate valve, the system would not restart correctly. When I tuned it to a point where just a tiny, tiny, tiny bit of water is falling through it (making no noise), every time I restart the system it does so correctly.

5) This is one thing I did right!!!! I know in your thread and web page you show using ball valves which obviously is perfectly OK, but I'll echo what many others have said. If your starting from scratch do yourself a favor and DEFINITELY UPGRADE TO A GATE VALVE on the main channel siphon line. It will be soooooo much easier to tune.

Again, thanks so much for your help and for sharing your great design. It is working flawlessly at the moment. I also tested a few "worst case" scenarios and sure enough it worked like a charm. Definitely helps me sleep a little easier and vacation a little better.

 

[uncleof6]

Bean,

...

4) The secondary durso does not need to run 100% dry. It is ok if it has a tiny bit of water running through it. I am not sure about this, but IME I noticed (again with the help of a fellow FMAS member) that when I tried to completely eliminate water falling into the secondary durso by adjusting the gate valve, the system would not restart correctly. When I tuned it to a point where just a tiny, tiny, tiny bit of water is falling through it (making no noise), every time I restart the system it does so correctly.

...

Just info, when setup correctly there is supposed to be flow in the open channel. The siphon capacity is adjusted a bit below the pump flow rate, so water flows in the open channel. It is not supposed to be dry. The third standpipe (emergency) should be dry under normal operation.
Jim

 

[Jgoal55]

Just info, when setup correctly there is supposed to be flow in the open channel. The siphon capacity is adjusted a bit below the pump flow rate, so water flows in the open channel. It is not supposed to be dry. The third standpipe (emergency) should be dry under normal operation.
Jim

that would explain my troubles.....lol

yeah, the second I left a that bit of water running through the secondary durso it worked like a charm.

 

[theshiver]

Will this work as well if I use 1.5 throughout ?

 

[teesquare]

Sure! No problem. What size system and pump?
T

 

[stealle]

I think he might be asking because the original design uses 1" bulkheads. I kinda wonder why that is too.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The original design used 1" bulkheads because that is what the tank was drilled for and what was in-hand. A few quick calculations indicated that 1" bulkheads would provide more than enough flow and headroom. The pipe was upsized (as indicated in the original posts (and in the project details at www.beananimal.com) to allow for a quieter open channel and less chance of clogging or interaction by the buildup of organic material.

 

[teesquare]

stealle:
That was why I was asking theshiver what size pump and system. I use Bean's design on my current tank - and it is plumbed using 2'' pipe, and I tested it at over 7000 gph - over the overflow and still quiet ....
But most systems probably don't need that kind of flow.
T

 

[jupiter]

I know these posts are a dime a dozen but I'll tell you your overflow system really does work. I set the plumbing up with blind faith and when the water started flowing I thought I made a big mistake but with a little "tuning" the flow is strong and the overflow is silent. I'm using a Reeflo Dart that is tee-d off to the sump but instead of closing the valve on the siphon, I've just adjusted the gate on the tee, so the siphon is running full force.

So, thanks Beananimal for your great design!

 

[stealle]

The original design used 1" bulkheads because that is what the tank was drilled for and what was in-hand. A few quick calculations indicated that 1" bulkheads would provide more than enough flow and headroom. The pipe was upsized (as indicated in the original posts (and in the project details at www.beananimal.com) to allow for a quieter open channel and less chance of clogging or interaction by the buildup of organic material.

Thanks for clarification/reminder. I read the original post and your website some 9+ months ago. I just didn't remember about the 1" bulkheads.

stealle:
That was why I was asking theshiver what size pump and system. I use Bean's design on my current tank - and it is plumbed using 2'' pipe, and I tested it at over 7000 gph - over the overflow and still quiet ....
But most systems probably don't need that kind of flow.
T

I posted some info on my build plans in post #1358 and #1360. I didn't get much of a response. But I have been wondering about return pump size for my system. I want an internal pump. I'm debating between what ATB pump to get. I want a "high flow sump", but don't really know where to draw the line between "high flow" and "ridiculously high flow".
sump will be directly underneath the tank so I guess I will have roughly 5ft head loss. Here are the pumps I'm looking at. If you, or anyone else, has any advice, I'll take it. (If so, have a look at post #1358 and #1360)

ATB Flow Star 1500
1532@1FT
1386@3FT
1215@5FT

ATB FS 1800
1800@1FT
1432@3FT
1323@5FT

ATB FS 3200
3200@1FT
2438@3FT
2135@5FT

I know these posts are a dime a dozen but I'll tell you your overflow system really does work. I set the plumbing up with blind faith and when the water started flowing I thought I made a big mistake but with a little "tuning" the flow is strong and the overflow is silent. I'm using a Reeflo Dart that is tee-d off to the sump but instead of closing the valve on the siphon, I've just adjusted the gate on the tee, so the siphon is running full force.

So, thanks Beananimal for your great design!

These posts are always nice too read. I can't wait till I can get started on my build!

 

[BeanAnimal]

I know these posts are a dime a dozen but I'll tell you your overflow system really does work. I set the plumbing up with blind faith and when the water started flowing I thought I made a big mistake but with a little "tuning" the flow is strong and the overflow is silent. I'm using a Reeflo Dart that is tee-d off to the sump but instead of closing the valve on the siphon, I've just adjusted the gate on the tee, so the siphon is running full force.

So, thanks Beananimal for your great design!

You may want to try adjusting the siphon valve so that you can utilize the full flow of the dart

 

[teesquare]

Picking a pump and type of sump is like picking another man's religion:spin3:

Seriously - what do you want of the sump? Are planning a separate refugium, or none? What kind of tank? Fish only? SPS? or mostly LPS/Soft corals?

All of these questions, and more - should be asked to know what to best recommend.

Can you cut/paste all the info you have about your system?

For me, and the pump question - I like BIG:spin1:.!!! You can always throttle back or tee off if you think it is tto much pump out put.
T

 

[stealle]

Picking a pump and type of sump is like picking another man's religion:spin3:

Seriously - what do you want of the sump? Are planning a separate refugium, or none? What kind of tank? Fish only? SPS? or mostly LPS/Soft corals?

All of these questions, and more - should be asked to know what to best recommend.

Can you cut/paste all the info you have about your system?

For me, and the pump question - I like BIG:spin1:.!!! You can always throttle back or tee off if you think it is tto much pump out put.
T

Well, as mentioned above, I think I spelled everything out in post #1358 and #1360. I just didn't want to clutter up the thread by re-posting everything.

I'll recap and answer your questions:

...
I plan to use your overflow design. My tank will be 200 gallon (50"L X 36"W X 26"H). My sump will be 95 gallon (46"L X 28"W X 17"H) probably 60 gallon actual volume. For the return pump I plan on using 1.5" tubing split into two returns. [EDIT: This will be an SPS dominated reef; 90% SPS/10%LPS)

Question what would you recommend for return/flow through the sump in GPH?

... I like the idea of high flow sumps to prevent stagnant areas. I guess I should provide a little more info.

In my display I plan to use two MP40s, one on each side. For the return lines I plan to have them exit into the display via two 1" sea swirls (they are rated for about 1100 gph each). Here is my sump design. (Please try not to laugh at my poor sketchup skills... also it is not quite at proper scale).

The refugium section (all the way to the left) has a small bulkhead so I can run lower flow through it. [EDIT: I will run a separate smaller pump for the refugium to have lower flow/ I will not tee off the return pump to feed the refugium. I have reasons for this decision] So most of the flow will be in the skimmer section and the middle return section. ... What I am trying to do with this design is use the LARGE width I have to work with. It's 28" wide. So I have flow going from front to back, then back to front before the internal return pump. The bubble trap is still 14" wide as is. ...

 

[jupiter]

You may want to try adjusting the siphon valve so that you can utilize the full flow of the dart

Closing the siphon valve, even a little bit, makes the water in the overflow box rise and the open channel alternates between "siphon" and open, even when I let it equilibrate. I read through most of the early part of this thread but it's so big now so I haven't read everything. So forgive my ignorance but isn't a fully open siphon the best scenario? It means the siphon is handling all the water given to it without it over-sucking and gurgling. That is to say, the siphon is handling all the water it possibly can with the open channel picking up the rest.

I would love to have this system handle all of the Dart's flow but I don't think I can't make the siphon take anymore short of turning the open channel into a second siphon. Please tell me I'm wrong because this is fun stuff to experiment. :celeb1:

 

[teesquare]

Well - 2 things that I see which are important:
1. The sea swirls are rated at 1100 gph. If you only have 5 feet of actual head loss, pick a pump that is slightly more than 2200gph - *IF* you have no further need for powerng any function from the return side of the pump.
2. Find out what the maximum flow the sump will handle thru the weirs that you have designed. That is a function of the total cubic inches of space in between the "teeth" in the weirs. Make sure the pump you choose will not over power the ability of the sump to "flow"

But, again - I like BIG pumps. You can put a ball valve and tee on the discharge, and use the excess flow for other things, separate sump, reactors, etc

 

[BeanAnimal]

Closing the siphon valve, even a little bit, makes the water in the overflow box rise and the open channel alternates between "siphon" and open, even when I let it equilibrate. I read through most of the early part of this thread but it's so big now so I haven't read everything. So forgive my ignorance but isn't a fully open siphon the best scenario? It means the siphon is handling all the water given to it without it over-sucking and gurgling. That is to say, the siphon is handling all the water it possibly can with the open channel picking up the rest.

I would love to have this system handle all of the Dart's flow but I don't think I can't make the siphon take anymore short of turning the open channel into a second siphon. Please tell me I'm wrong because this is fun stuff to experiment. :celeb1:

Yes... the fully open siphon means it is taking all it can take (as long as no air is getting in). The internal elbow and bulkhead are likely the narrow spots.

So with your DART at full flow and the siphon valve all the way open, does the siphon suck air?

 

[stealle]

Well - 2 things that I see which are important:
1. The sea swirls are rated at 1100 gph. If you only have 5 feet of actual head loss, pick a pump that is slightly more than 2200gph - *IF* you have no further need for powerng any function from the return side of the pump.
2. Find out what the maximum flow the sump will handle thru the weirs that you have designed. That is a function of the total cubic inches of space in between the "teeth" in the weirs. Make sure the pump you choose will not over power the ability of the sump to "flow"

But, again - I like BIG pumps. You can put a ball valve and tee on the discharge, and use the excess flow for other things, separate sump, reactors, etc

Sounds like the ATB FlowStar 3200 with 2135 gph at 5ft would be a good fit then.
Specs:
ATB FS 3200
3200@1FT
2438@3FT
2135@5FT

When you say "Find out what the maximum flow the sump will handle thru the weirs..." I'm not sure what you are talking about. Pardon my ignorance. Are you referring to the baffles? I figure if I space the baffles far enough apart it should handle the flow. How do I calculate flow through these baffles. The baffles will be about 14" wide so I need to figure out how far apart the baffles need to be to handle ~2200 gph. I'm thinking in the 1.5 - 2" apart area, but don't know for sure. I don't want them to be further apart than necessary. Thanks for your help!

 

[teesquare]

Sorry-
by weir - I mean the baffles...they have slots cut in them. Just make sure that the open area of these slots is much greater than what is needed to handle the pump you settle on. I am not in favor of the slots, they collect debreis, changing the water height and flow potential in the sump. I like smooth tops baffles. But it is entirely a personal choice - not one of success or failure.