Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[Perched Urchin]

Bean or Jim,
I am in the design/build stage for my new 90 with external c2c overflow. The sump is going to be remote - same floor (everything in the basement), but about 11-12 feet away with 1 turn around a corner. Using a standard 75G for the sump, so height is 21" on top of being approximately 4" off the floor. So, unless I drill for the drains to go through the side of the sump, I will have to run them 2'+ off the floor.
Questions:
- Will this horizontal distance pose a problem with this overflow design?
- I know the siphon can handle vertical changes (going below the 24" and then coming up) although it will slow the flow. Will the second and emergency drains function properly if there is a stretch that is lower than the 24"? I am thinking I will have a giant drain trap, but that it would still flow and I will just need to make sure it stays clear in there.
Ideally I will be able to keep all the plumping at 24" or higher with a slight slope to the sump, but I want to know if I need to rethink this whole thing if I can't keep the drain pipes that high.
Thanks!

 

[medicreefer]

I initially asked a few questions on this thread a couple of weeks ago (probably a few pages back by now) but now I have more for Bean (or anyone else who wants to help).

In my original plans for my 120g with coast-to-coast overflow (and BeanAnimal drain) I was planning to have the sump behind the tank in a laundry room. That would have resulted in possibly as little as 18" of head height between the top of the DT and top of the sump. For that reason I ordered the tank with 1.5" bulkheads. However, plans have changed. I now want to locate my sump in a finished crawl-space storage closet that is a half-floor below the DT. This would result in a possible 7 feet of head height. Based on the calculator on your website 1.5" pipes with 7 feet of head will flow about 7000gph. I only want to run about 1200gph with my return pump so I'm going to have to use the ball valve (or gate valve) to really dial the flow way back on the main siphon.

My first question is, will having the valve closed so much cause major cavitation and noise in the pipe? Secondly, I'm thinking with all that head height and the water "wanting" to flow so fast the valve will be closed down to about .6" diameter to slow the flow to the rate I'm looking for. Will that not significantly increase the chances of something getting caught at the valve?

So, will I have these problems keeping it as it is and running 1.5" pipes (which would allow me to change my mind about flow through the system in the future) or should I reduce down to a smaller pipe size?

Thanks

 

[scott26]

I initially asked a few questions on this thread a couple of weeks ago (probably a few pages back by now) but now I have more for Bean (or anyone else who wants to help).

In my original plans for my 120g with coast-to-coast overflow (and BeanAnimal drain) I was planning to have the sump behind the tank in a laundry room. That would have resulted in possibly as little as 18" of head height between the top of the DT and top of the sump. For that reason I ordered the tank with 1.5" bulkheads. However, plans have changed. I now want to locate my sump in a finished crawl-space storage closet that is a half-floor below the DT. This would result in a possible 7 feet of head height. Based on the calculator on your website 1.5" pipes with 7 feet of head will flow about 7000gph. I only want to run about 1200gph with my return pump so I'm going to have to use the ball valve (or gate valve) to really dial the flow way back on the main siphon.

My first question is, will having the valve closed so much cause major cavitation and noise in the pipe? Secondly, I'm thinking with all that head height and the water "wanting" to flow so fast the valve will be closed down to about .6" diameter to slow the flow to the rate I'm looking for. Will that not significantly increase the chances of something getting caught at the valve?

So, will I have these problems keeping it as it is and running 1.5" pipes (which would allow me to change my mind about flow through the system in the future) or should I reduce down to a smaller pipe size?

Thanks

Why not just bush down from your bulk head? I think the set up you have now would work fine though without any cavation issues but that is just an opinion I will wait for bean or jim to answer this one

 

[uncleof6]

I initially asked a few questions on this thread a couple of weeks ago (probably a few pages back by now) but now I have more for Bean (or anyone else who wants to help).

In my original plans for my 120g with coast-to-coast overflow (and BeanAnimal drain) I was planning to have the sump behind the tank in a laundry room. That would have resulted in possibly as little as 18" of head height between the top of the DT and top of the sump. For that reason I ordered the tank with 1.5" bulkheads. However, plans have changed. I now want to locate my sump in a finished crawl-space storage closet that is a half-floor below the DT. This would result in a possible 7 feet of head height. Based on the calculator on your website 1.5" pipes with 7 feet of head will flow about 7000gph. I only want to run about 1200gph with my return pump so I'm going to have to use the ball valve (or gate valve) to really dial the flow way back on the main siphon.

My first question is, will having the valve closed so much cause major cavitation and noise in the pipe? Secondly, I'm thinking with all that head height and the water "wanting" to flow so fast the valve will be closed down to about .6" diameter to slow the flow to the rate I'm looking for. Will that not significantly increase the chances of something getting caught at the valve?

So, will I have these problems keeping it as it is and running 1.5" pipes (which would allow me to change my mind about flow through the system in the future) or should I reduce down to a smaller pipe size?

Thanks

Bush the siphon bulkhead to 1" and use 1" standpipes and drain line for it. Bush the open channel bulkhead to 1.25", use 1.25" standpipe and drain line, bush the emergency bulkead to 1" use 1" stand pipe and drain line. And stop fretting over it it will work fine. Use a 1 -1.25" valve in the siphon line, set it and forget it. If the siphon plugs, that is what the emergency drain is for. 1.5" would work also, but is a "bit" much for 1200 gph.... If the siphon plugs, and the emergency line outlet is just above the sump water level, it will tell you there is a problem.

Jim

 

[Sprockett]

Bean....

I just wanted to thank you for this system, I've been working on a 65g with a 20g sump and just started to run the leak tests in the shop. I used 1" pvc and once the main syphon kicks in it can outrun my mag drive 950 by a long shot, I've had to adjust the valve to keep it from making noise. But once I got it set it just runs, I've restarted, tried to flood it by blocking things and I'm super impressed.

Now if I can just get all the leaks in the other plumbing I'll be all set

Here are a couple of shots of the tank running in the shop.

 

[coralcruze]

HELLO GUYS... what a great thread and exactly what I need right now. I am currently designing my cubish tank and base to be built completly custom.

The concept is a waterfall tank where the water overflows the two side walls only. as if this isnt the only challenge I have a wife who will throw my A$$ out if the overflow isn't comletely silent. all of the overflow systems that I see here are designed for overflow boxes that are aligned to the top of the water column in the main tank. I would like to try and place my overflows in the base box instead so they are completely hidden. supply lines will probably be drilled through the back wall or perhaps through the bottom of the tank close to the back wall. I'm considering both options however, I prefer not to get into haing to install one way check valves as those do fail. I don't feel like dealing with a disaster anytime soon.


here is the concept: as you can see the side walls are a bit lower than the front and back walls allowing for the water to flow over. the trays you see on the sides will collect the overflow and direct it to the woveflow boxes which you see the top of through the clear base in the diagram below.

view of tanks bottom side without base showing the overflow boxe on right:

another view of tank only without base showing the overflow boxes on right and left:

ok so as you can tell there will be some special challenges to this tank. I'm not even sure at this point if a silent overflow is possible in this case. this is why I am posting here so people can suggest which diretion to go in. :worried:

also I see lots of people posted some really nice plumbing 3d drawings. can anyone suggest what program to use for this? My drawings above were all generated using autocad and unfortunatly I don't have plumbing blocks. anyone know where I can get some free plumbing blocks to be able to generate actual hard plumbing and than i can share them here before I go through with the build. thanks sooooo much to everyone contributing to this thread.

 

[bigffish]

fitting question

fitting question

Hey Bean, thanks again for all your invaluable information and sticking with the thread. I decided to go with the calpho overflow in the tank with the bean overflow in a overflow on the back of the tank. I have put the full siphon together down to the 1" bulk head and need to transfer from 1" pipe to 1.5", not being a real plumbing guy I am not sure how to do this! Savko plastics said a 1.5" couple should do the trick? Your help our anyone is greatly appreciated. Thanks again.

BIGFFISH:fish1::fish1:

 

[coralcruze]

wow, not one responded... I read through beananimals web page from top to bottom aqnd although it may be a good overflow design for a "standard" tank it will NOT work with my concept unfortunatly. So there is a limit to what his design will function for. I was hoping to hear some alternatives though.

 

[bigffish]

To all, Invariably a 1.5 inch slip x slip pvc coupling will do the job, answered my own ?

Bigffish:bounce1:

 

[BeanAnimal]

wow, not one responded... I read through beananimals web page from top to bottom aqnd although it may be a good overflow design for a "standard" tank it will NOT work with my concept unfortunatly. So there is a limit to what his design will function for. I was hoping to hear some alternatives though.

There is nothing stopping you from implementing the design in you stand, other than gravity. I am not sure what your total proposed flow is or the differnce in height between the sump surface and the overflow channel.

A set of step baffles on each side may be a better alternative, with each baffle dropping the water level a few inches. The wider the baffles, the lower the velocity of the water traveling over them.

 

[coralcruze]

There is nothing stopping you from implementing the design in you stand, other than gravity. I am not sure what your total proposed flow is or the differnce in height between the sump surface and the overflow channel.

A set of step baffles on each side may be a better alternative, with each baffle dropping the water level a few inches. The wider the baffles, the lower the velocity of the water traveling over them.

Thanks for responding... I have thought about the step baffel however this will severely increase the complexity of the build. I'd like to keep things as simple as possible despite the complexity of the current design lol.

My tank is proposed at 36" x 36" x 18" h so I'm not sertain what flow rate I need in order to get a nice even sheet of water to flow over the side walls without splashing. I was hopeing for some help with that part. not sure wher eto begin. I wish I knew what formulas to use I could do the math. I am considering doing an attached frag tank as my overflow that would hang down on each side but I definatly want the pipes concealed. I was thinking an overflow tray that is 4"w x 26" x 7". what I would like to do is be able to flood the tray to about 1.5" from the top and controle this water level with some sort of fail safe. so the total water depth would be 5.5". I may not be able to implement a three pipe system like the one you devised but perhaps some sort of durso with a secondary fail safe? can you give me an idea if you think this is possible any help would be much appreciated. thanks soooo much.

 

[golf nut]

You might be better off just having one overflow wall, this will be much easier to achieve and manage, are you proposing to run the crap that exits the tank from the surface to feed a frag tank?

 

[bigffish]

flow rate chart?

flow rate chart?

I have tried but can't put my hand on the estimated full siphon flow rate chart that is posted a number of times on the thread, will a merciful soul point me in a specific direction; page#, pm. It would be a huge help!

Thanks, Bigffish

 

[BeanAnimal]

You mean you don't have the Bernoulli equation memorized?

Table:

Explanation and Flash based siphon flow calculator:
http://beananimal.com/articles/hydraulics-for-the-aquarist.aspx

 

[bigffish]

Thanks Bean

Thanks Bean

I am working on it! Bigffish

 

[Pnoytoitz]

Is this will quiet and work with just 2 drain instead of 3 (without emergency)?

 

[coralcruze]

You mean you don't have the Bernoulli equation memorized?

Table:

Explanation and Flash based siphon flow calculator:
http://beananimal.com/articles/hydraulics-for-the-aquarist.aspx

hey Bean... thanks for that info. I promise that I'll have it memorized by next weeks quiz ok now that I have that info. can you please tell me... would this standpipe work with your 3 pipe system assuming that I have one failsafe, one full siphon and one adjustable (ball valve ect)...???

http://www.rl180reef.com/pages/standpipe/standpipe-ken_stockman.htm

the reason i would like a straight standpipe like this is due to room constraints within the overflow trays and the nature of the design of my waterfall tank. I'm planning to have the pipes within the overflow trays because obviously they will never work under the tank and placing them on the outside which is the sides of the tank will detract from the overall look of the tank. I really want to silence the tank and your system does that better than any durso out there. Like you bean, having a tank that makes noise is completely out of the question. I really appreciate all of your help and hope to start the build soon and will be posing pics. again thanks.

 

[coralcruze]

Is this will quiet and work with just 2 drain instead of 3 (without emergency)?

yeah it will work... so efficiently actually that if for some reason they get clogges they will empty your sump completely in a sort minute. umnnn yeah why would you want to eliminate a failsafe? please don't tell me that you like to live dangerously

 

[coralcruze]

You might be better off just having one overflow wall, this will be much easier to achieve and manage, are you proposing to run the crap that exits the tank from the surface to feed a frag tank?

I have actually thought of one wall overflow rather than two... still toying with that idea. BUT yeah I am proposing to run the crap that exits the tank from the surface to feed a frag tank... you honestly don't think that any protien skimmer out there handles all of the water discharge, do you? so sure the crap thats overflowing the walls or top surface skimate will be broken down by the natural agitation of the waterfall itself. I think the frags will love the flow even though they will be knee deep in it... the crap that is

 

[Pnoytoitz]

yeah it will work... so efficiently actually that if for some reason they get clogges they will empty your sump completely in a sort minute. umnnn yeah why would you want to eliminate a failsafe? please don't tell me that you like to live dangerously

Have only 2 drain bulkheads in the bottom of my tank.