Splitting Carpet Anemonies

[elegance coral]

OK, let me put it another way. We can't assume that it is reproduction from a snapshot in time. We also can't state as fact that it is not a form of reproduction.

We can not state as fact that we are not being visited by little green men, or that bigfoot is not terrorizing campers in the north west. It is next to impossible to prove that something does not exist.

Other anemones reproduce via budding.

You have been studying anemones long enough to know that this is a huge group of animals. They have colonized virtually every habitat in our oceans. From hydrothermal vents, deep sea trenches, the great abyssal plains, under the ice sheet of the arctic, mangrove swamps, kelp forests, to shallow pristine tropical waters. Each species has adapted to its own little niche in the environment. This has produced a huge number of species with vastly different abilities and strategies for survival. If we are to learn about a given species, we must study that species. Studying the reproduction of aiptasia will tell us very little about the reproduction of gigantea. This is like studying ostriches to learn about penguins. We can not take traits or abilities of one species and assume it holds true of another.

I have seen a progression of pics of a haddoni bud growing into an oral disk equalling the size of the "mother" disk. When the last pic was taken they still shared a foot. This anemone was not born with this deformity and the deformity grew and developed all the things it needed to live on its own.

All true anemones have pedal disks. They can not survive on their own without one. According to your description, this "bud" never formed a pedal disk of its own and therefor could not have survived on its own. It had everything it needed to survive as long as it was attached to the "mother" anemone. Not on its own. We can not assume this bud could have survived on its own, because it never was on its own. We have no way of knowing what internal structures this bud had, or what structures it shared with the "mother" polyp. I've seen buds grow. I've seen one of twin pedal disks grow. Never to the extent you describe though. I've never seen them separate and form two individual anemones.

To me that is enough observation to at least form a hypothesis.

I totally agree. This is what science is all about. Forming a hypothesis, then going out and finding evidence to support the hypothesis. The hypothesis never becomes fact without the evidence to back it up, though. To date, we simply do not have the evidence to support the hypothesis that these species have the ability to reproduce through budding or division.

Observations of a six month + process in nature would be rather difficult. You would first have to find one in a suspected process and then keep tabs on it. Not many researchers have that kind of time or money.
I understand that you are not ready to make the jump and say that carpets can reproduce asexually, but I am surprised that you don't seem to leave any room for that to be a possibility.

I would love nothing more than to be wrong on this. If these animals could reproduce in this fashion, it could potentially open a whole new window of opportunity for their captive propagation. Unfortunately, the evidence just isn't there to support it. We, in the hobby, tend to be very optimistic. We want our anemones to reproduce. When we see the slightest abnormality, the first thought that comes to mind is reproduction. This is rarely the case though. Despite the countless examples of abnormalities or deformities in these animals, we have no documented case of this resulting in reproduction.

The reason I'm so vocal about this subject is that I believe it diverts attention away from methods of reproduction that actually stand a chance of success. It also leads to hobbyists doing horrible things to their anemones, like cutting them in half. Todd has posted evidence of his haddoni releasing sperm. I have posted evidence of my haddoni releasing eggs. This to me is conclusive evidence that these are broadcast spawners. If the same amount of effort was focused on the sexual reproduction of these animals, as has been devoted to cutting them in half, we probably would have mastered a successful method of propagation by now. One that doesn't put the life of the animal in jeopardy.

Here's an example of what the belief that these animals reproduce asexually leads to. The poster even claims that two portions of the anemone moved across the tank, found each other, and grew back together. Seriously!!!:thumbdown
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[ousnakebyte]

The reason I'm so vocal about this subject is that I believe it diverts attention away from methods of reproduction that actually stand a chance of success. It also leads to hobbyists doing horrible things to their anemones, like cutting them in half. Todd has posted evidence of his haddoni releasing sperm. I have posted evidence of my haddoni releasing eggs. This to me is conclusive evidence that these are broadcast spawners. If the same amount of effort was focused on the sexual reproduction of these animals, as has been devoted to cutting them in half, we probably would have mastered a successful method of propagation by now. One that doesn't put the life of the animal in jeopardy.

I whole-heartily agree that we (or aquaculture facilities) should be focusing on the sexual reproduction of these species, especially S. haddoni. Anecdotally, I have had my - what I now know to be female - haddoni spawn and release eggs after times of stress (twice was after a move of the whole tank, the other was a remodeling of the tank where I had it in a bucket over night). These "stress spawns" have not resulted in any visible detriment to the adult. Each time I have collected eggs only to have them crumble apart after about 24 hours - which leads me to believe that they 1) either only release egg or sperm and/or 2) they will not self-fertilize 3) they are most likely broadcast spawners. Whether these stress spawns would result in less-fit larvae, I cannot say.

However, with enough individuals and the right techniques (techniques that are already established), I believe that viable larvae can be sexually reproduced ex situ. Initial studies on sperm concentration, zoox extraction for the adults, etc. would need to be conducted, but that's the fun part!

And, the sheer volume released, combined with good husbrandy and virtually zero predation, I think could yield very high survival rates.

The real issue, I think, would be growth rates. If they grow too slow, then it might not be a profitable venture - which, sadly, is what it all boils down to.

Cheers
Mike

 

[phender]

All true anemones have pedal disks. They can not survive on their own without one. According to your description, this "bud" never formed a pedal disk of its own and therefor could not have survived on its own. It had everything it needed to survive as long as it was attached to the "mother" anemone. Not on its own. We can not assume this bud could have survived on its own, because it never was on its own. We have no way of knowing what internal structures this bud had, or what structures it shared with the "mother" polyp. I've seen buds grow. I've seen one of twin pedal disks grow. Never to the extent you describe though. I've never seen them separate and form two individual anemones.

In the last picture I saw, the mother was no longer distinguishable from the bud. The animal had two equal columns and was only attached at the pedal disk. It seemed to be just a matter of time before it became two separate individuals. But, the final picture of complete separation was never posted.

The reason I'm so vocal about this subject is that I believe it diverts attention away from methods of reproduction that actually stand a chance of success. It also leads to hobbyists doing horrible things to their anemones, like cutting them in half. Todd has posted evidence of his haddoni releasing sperm. I have posted evidence of my haddoni releasing eggs. This to me is conclusive evidence that these are broadcast spawners. If the same amount of effort was focused on the sexual reproduction of these animals, as has been devoted to cutting them in half, we probably would have mastered a successful method of propagation by now. One that doesn't put the life of the animal in jeopardy.

I totally agree that we should not be trying to cut carpets in half. The budding process is nothing like the fission process. But, just because haddonis seem to be broadcast spawners doesn't mean they can't reproduce in other ways. There are reports and pics of haddoni brooding their young internally as well. BTAs reproduce sexually by releasing eggs and sperm. That doesn't stop them from splitting or releasing planula that settle and develop into anemones.

I guess we are just going to have to concede that I think there is enough evidence out there to support the possibility of budding in carpets and you do not.

There is a giant clam facility that has reproduced gigantea sexually, but the specifics seem to be closely guarded. I look forward to the day I retire and can set up a greenhouse with a gigantea run. Then I will have to try to pry the info out of someone I know.

 

[ousnakebyte]

There are reports and pics of haddoni brooding their young internally as well.

Can you find a reliable link, paper, etc.? I have been trying to find information in the journals about S. haddoni reproduction - broadcasting vs brooders, etc.? But, to no avail.

But, the females releasing unfertilized eggs would likely not support that theory.

 

[ryanrid]

Ryanrid,

What is your process of splitting them and getting them to survive? We are all waiting.

ill report back in 1-2 years with a full report detailing all the cuts and where all the pieces are over that period, i will be looking for it to be published.

do you think that would be a sufficient study?

 

[ousnakebyte]

ill report back in 1-2 years with a full report detailing all the cuts and where all the pieces are over that period, i will be looking for it to be published.

do you think that would be a sufficient study?

What is your sample size? Or, what do you plan it to be? Are you minimizing as many variables as you can (light, water quality, feeding, size/age of all subjects in the study, etc., etc.)? How many replicates are you planning? How many controls will you have? Are you cutting each in half or others in 4ths, 8ths, etc.?

When you say, "where all the pieces are over that period," do you mean that you will spread the various cuttings out to different peoples' tanks? If so, bad idea.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk, these are just the preliminary questions that come to my mind when talking about getting a study like this published.

Cheers
Mike

 

[ryanrid]

What is your sample size? Or, what do you plan it to be? Are you minimizing as many variables as you can (light, water quality, feeding, size/age of all subjects in the study, etc., etc.)? How many replicates are you planning? How many controls will you have? Are you cutting each in half or others in 4ths, 8ths, etc.?

When you say, "where all the pieces are over that period," do you mean that you will spread the various cuttings out to different peoples' tanks? If so, bad idea.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk, these are just the preliminary questions that come to my mind when talking about getting a study like this published.

Cheers
Mike

your gonna have to wait and see

 

[phender]

Can you find a reliable link, paper, etc.? I have been trying to find information in the journals about S. haddoni reproduction - broadcasting vs brooders, etc.? But, to no avail.

But, the females releasing unfertilized eggs would likely not support that theory.

The best I can do right now are the pics on Shutiny's website.
http://www.exoticcoral.com/anemones(reproduction01).htm
You can probably pm her if you have questions.
Good luck trying to find a scientific paper on the subject. Believe it or not most scientific institutions still have trouble keeping anemones alive long enough to do any long term studies. Plus, someone has to fund the study in one way or another. Likely, the best you can hope for is anecdotal evidence from hobbyists or collectors/wholesalers.

Many simple animals have reproduction for times of stress and reproduction for times of plenty. If haddonis fall into this category, they would likely be broadcast spawners during times of stress (like you have observed) and brooders or have some sort of asexual reproduction during times of plenty.

FWIW, I imagine ryanrid is considering doing a publication for the hobby rather than a scientific journal. (or he could be just jerking our chains )

 

[ousnakebyte]

your gonna have to wait and see

I'm not going to steal your study. I just wondered if we were going to gain reliable information.

Personally, as I have already stated, I think future captive propagation of haddonis should focus on sexual reproduction.

 

[BonsaiNut]

and this is a piece of one that was cut into 8 by a coral farmer/collector in aus

This runs contrary to everything I know about this species. Unless you can provide evidence of this claim, please don't post statements like this. It will just cause more people to kill anemones. You have a lot of very experienced people (including myself) saying it cannot be done - even cutting one in half. There are "rumors" of very rare survivals, but they are substantially few, and considerable fewer than the MANY attempts to do this. Post some proof, or don't post at all.

Post like this are to me the same as saying "I cut my dog in half - now I have two dogs! Oh, but I don't have any photos..."

 

[ousnakebyte]

Hmmm.... well, here is a study from 2008 involving Heteractis crispa and Entacmaea quadricolor. According to the study, they are broadcast spawners.

Scott, A. and P.L. Harrison. 2008. Larval settlement and juvenile development of sea anemones that provide habitat for anemonefish MARINE BIOLOGY Volume 154, Number 5, 833-839


AHHHH!!! Here we go. This might help.

Scott, A. and B. Francisco. 2006. Observations on the feeding behaviour of resident anemonefish during host sea anemone spawning. CORAL REEFS Volume 25, Number 3, 451.

The authors witnessed three Amphiprion clarkii feeding on the eggs of the anemone (S. haddoni) as they were being broadcast into the water column.

However, they might brood sometimes, I suppose. Perhaps - looks like "more studies are needed."

Many simple animals have reproduction for times of stress and reproduction for times of plenty. If haddonis fall into this category, they would likely be broadcast spawners during times of stress (like you have observed) and brooders or have some sort of asexual reproduction during times of plenty.

Yes, however, that doesn't mean viable larvae cannot be produced ex situ with these "stress spawns." Giant clams are an example of this, which is why I believe we should be looking to further our knowledge of their captive reproduction capabilities as opposed to the very questionable practice of hacking them to pieces.

I would LOVE to partake in a study like this, but I continually scrape by for funding too, and grant monies are not exactly falling from the trees these days...

FWIW, I imagine ryanrid is considering doing a publication for the hobby rather than a scientific journal. (or he could be just jerking our chains )

Fine, but that does not mean a "hobby publication" cannot or should not stand up to the established practices of "good science."

This runs contrary to everything I know about this species. Unless you can provide evidence of this claim, please don't post statements like this. It will just cause more people to kill anemones. You have a lot of very experienced people (including myself) saying it cannot be done - even cutting one in half. There are "rumors" of very rare survivals, but they are substantially few, and considerable fewer than the MANY attempts to do this. Post some proof, or don't post at all.

Post like this are to me the same as saying "I cut my dog in half - now I have two dogs! Oh, but I don't have any photos..."

Apparently we need to wait 1-2 years for all this rigorous scientific testing and data collection and analysis of results.

If in time this (reliable) data shows up - and there is more than a sample size of one or two - accompanied by more than the questionable documentation that was posted above, and your results suggest that this is possible, then perhaps we will believe you.

Until then, expect skepticism and as Bonsai said, don't encourage others to start slicing their carpets in half...

Cheers
Mike

 

[BonsaiNut]

AHHHH!!! Here we go. This might help.

Just go to Dr. Scott's web site for an extensive series of articles on the reproductive biology of E. quadricolor and H. crispa; the only thing missing at this point is some work around artificial triggering of spawning behavior, and diet of juveniles, and you would have all you need to set up a full aquaculture system.

However, she knows little about S. gigantea or S. haddoni; she is limited to working with anemones that can be found in semi-tropical waters. I have asked, and she cannot point me towards any specific research on the functional biology of either species.

The person with the most ad-hoc experience with S. gigantea appears to be Larry Sharon, previously of Belau Aquaculture. However Belau Aquaculture no longer exists, and Larry works elsewhere that is outside of the range of S. gigantea, so he no longer works with the species.

I think if someone is going to work on aquaculturing carpet anemones, they will need to set up a dedicated system for sexual reproduction. It is probably less difficult than it sounds if you have the space. The puzzle pieces are all out there; the question of internal brooding doesn't really complicate matters, and may in fact simplify them. Set up a system assuming broadcast spawning, and it would still work for internal brooding.

 

[ryanrid]

This runs contrary to everything I know about this species. Unless you can provide evidence of this claim, please don't post statements like this. It will just cause more people to kill anemones. You have a lot of very experienced people (including myself) saying it cannot be done - even cutting one in half. There are "rumors" of very rare survivals, but they are substantially few, and considerable fewer than the MANY attempts to do this. Post some proof, or don't post at all.

Post like this are to me the same as saying "I cut my dog in half - now I have two dogs! Oh, but I don't have any photos..."

i posted a photo of one of the 8...

Apparently we need to wait 1-2 years for all this rigorous scientific testing and data collection and analysis of results.

If in time this (reliable) data shows up - and there is more than a sample size of one or two - accompanied by more than the questionable documentation that was posted above, and your results suggest that this is possible, then perhaps we will believe you.

Until then, expect skepticism and as Bonsai said, don't encourage others to start slicing their carpets in half...

Cheers
Mike

so you want a proper study done but dont want to wait for it? you need time for the study, sure i can document one now for one cut 10 days ago but that would be inconclusive would it not?


I am sure when the study has been completed many of you will still not believe so i am not worried about skepitsim, some people still dont believe we have been on the moon.....


last post for me on this thread but expect to see something down the track as i will expect people to still say impossible then.

 

[BonsaiNut]

i posted a photo of one of the 8...

last post for me on this thread but expect to see something down the track as i will expect people to still say impossible then.

I'll add you to the LONG list of people who have shown up, said they can do this, and then we never hear from again.

Prove me wrong, and I will not only apologize, but be very happy to do so, since you have been successful doing something that so many experienced people have been unable to do.

If, on the other hand, you just end up killing a bunch of creatures to satisfy your curiosity...

 

[RcToners]

i posted a photo of one of the 8...




so you want a proper study done but dont want to wait for it? you need time for the study, sure i can document one now for one cut 10 days ago but that would be inconclusive would it not?


I am sure when the study has been completed many of you will still not believe so i am not worried about skepitsim, some people still dont believe we have been on the moon.....


last post for me on this thread but expect to see something down the track as i will expect people to still say impossible then.

You seem to be missing the point so I will break it down for you on your own level.

1. you posted what appear to be some random images of a few carpet nems.
2. your photos are very blurry and our apologies but we can not see what is really going on.
3. You get defensive when asked for more proof.
4. What we asked from you was very simple, not a two year study but just some more clear information.
5. I fail to see how you cannot understand the skepticism you are getting from your posts. You posted some blurry images and stated they were split carpet nems but its clear from the photos no one can see anything let alone carpets that are split.
6. You are the same as several others who say this can be done but when asked for proof they simply get defensive throw a few insults around and dissapear.


If you have split carpet nems then its very simple to prove, take a few images of cutting the nems, take a few after shots, explain what you did and how you did it, keep us posted as to the health of the nems after, post a few more photos and update shots and call it a day. If you cannot do the above then there was no reason for you to post in this thread in the first place and state it can be done.

 

[ousnakebyte]

i posted a photo of one of the 8...

so you want a proper study done but dont want to wait for it? you need time for the study, sure i can document one now for one cut 10 days ago but that would be inconclusive would it not?

I am sure when the study has been completed many of you will still not believe so i am not worried about skepitsim, some people still dont believe we have been on the moon.....

last post for me on this thread but expect to see something down the track as i will expect people to still say impossible then.

Unless you are looking for true peer reviewed journal status, the study you are proposing should not take two years of data collection to complete and distribute results. And, two years would even be excessive for that.

I asked questions about your materials and methods b/c you are proposing to experiment on wild animals that are going to be plucked from a reef. It would at least be a little different if these were already captive propagated animals.

I realize there is a difference between experimenting on vertebrates and brainless cnidarians, but for me - and many others following this thread - we are concerned about these animals brought into captivity and want to see them thrive. If you are going to do a worthless study with questionable methods and even more questionable results, I was trying to help prevent that.

If you properly document your study along the way and are successful, then put me in line with the others who will greatly commend you on a job and study well done.


But for now, this is basically what you have told us:

This is a carpet anemone I cut up for asexual propagation:

Here is the one of the halves that is doing well and has healed up; see how the mouth has reformed:

Here is another one of the halves:

And here is the third half of the original anemone I cut up. The clowns and anemone crabs have already reestablished their homes:

I have as much proof for the successful "experiment" I just posted as you have for the one you just posted.


Bonsai - thank you for the link. I can't believe I didn't just google the author - they most all have websites these days...

Cheers
Mike

 

[ryanrid]

ok so for you haters :lol2:, first two pics are taken with iphone so dodgey quality nothing i can do about this as they are the only pics i took at the time.

pic when cut, you can it see has been cut through the mouth in half

here is a pic taken 12hrs after still with iphone - you can see the stress of the nems, one partically is not happy

and 36hrs afterwards taken with DSLR the two halfs

since then they have recovered much more and have more colour, as too how to cut etc, this is a trade secret for now as I do this as a business and in Aus a blue gig retails at over $3000.

This nem will continue to be propped several time a year....

 

[ryanrid]

double post

 

[Sfork]

His exif data and timeline match up.

 

[OrionN]

Please keep us update every few days if you can. If you can do that it would be great.