The Moorish Idol Thread

[CrazyLionfish]

Sorry some of you may take offense to this, but as everyone says, "leave them in the ocean", almost every story on this thread has ended up bad, and it wasn't because of neglect, its just the missing link that we still don't know about.

 

[CrazyLionfish]

And before we think of breeding them!! Lets figure out how to get them to survive first!

 

[KDodds]

Actually, the "stress of a 'wife' or 'husband' leaving" is, I think, a tad too anthropomorphic. It is FAR more likely, since both died really within hours of moving that a) the stress of the move contributed to both of their deaths and/or b) the beatings from the Powder Blue contributed and/or c) some unnoticed or unknown was already a factor in their deaths. Personally, I think it was probably a little bit of all three. With any really difficult species, removing all POSSIBLE hindrances to success is, I believe the best thing you can do. If there's one factor, it might not be a big deal, but start piling on factors, as above, and it can take very little for "delicate" species to fail to survive.

As far as "leave them in the ocean" goes, I would tend to agree for MOST aquarists, but those who have posted here HAVE given it their best shot. IF we were to go completely by the "leave them in the ocean" rules, we wouldn't be keeping anything at this point. A little perspective back to the days were success was measured in months, with DAMSELS, might be in order here.

Sometimes the best course of action towards insuring survival IS an attempted breeding program, large scale or small. Such was the case with species like Chocolate and Licorice Gouramis in FW, and even Clowns and Dottybacks and Gobies and Blennies, in some instances, in SW.

 

[zfunk007]

Excellent points KDodds. Its obvious that you are quite an intelligent person. I agree that breeding could be a key issue. Look how much hardier captive raised clownfish and other fish are compared to the wild caught ones. I know because I have worked in 2 LFS's and the captive raised fish we purchased from ORA lived much longer, had resistance to ich and other diseases and were left in our systems long after other wild caught specimens had died.

I am lucky enough to live about 30 miles from ORA and I am arranging a visit for me and my father to go and check out what they are doing. What they are doing there is phenominal and it has inspired me to get involved and possibly someday do it myself (hence the breeding Moorish Idol talk). It is my dream to have a huge breeding facility for fish and corals alike, fed from the ocean. It may be a dream, but I'm already in this business and I live in Florida and I may be starting from the bottom but these factors will help. As the saying goes, follow your dreams.

"leave them in the ocean"

If we all went by this philosophy no one would have salt water tanks with anything in them. It's a matter of finding out how to do something rather than saying it can't be done. Like I have stated before, once the importation of fish and corals is banned (and believe me it will be done) it will be up to us to keep the hobby alive.

I'm sorry your 2 fish died fppf. I think your first mistake was putting them into quarantine. In my opinion Moorish Idols need to be introduced into a tank immediatly when you get them. I think one of the factors that has kept my Moorish Idol alive is that he was able to skip the whole LFS phase of his life and went straight from the wholesalers to my tank (granted not many people have this option). It reduced alot of the stress.

Also as we all know, if a Moorish Idol is starved, even for a day then it is unlikely they will ever recover. Your Moorish Idols were obviously not fed at the collecting facilities where they were caught, and most likely not fed at the wholesalers where they were shipped. So 24-48 hours later (if not longer) they were finally fed when they arrived in the LFS, where in all reality it was probably too late. All these factors contribute to why Moorish Idols have such a bad survival record in captivity. There are obviously other factors we haven't figured out yet (long term factors) but thats what this thread is for. To try and figure out what IT is.

And if i'm not mistaken I don't think there have been very many "bad" stories in this thread yet. This is the first report I can remember of someones Idol dying. And of course there are going to be sad stories of fish dying. All kinds of fish die. Even when you do everything in your power to keep them alive. If you want to see some sad stories go read the Regal Angel thread. They seem to be quite sensitive also. But none the less some people are keeping them with success also (myself included).

Sorry about the rant but a certain someone set me off with his negative comments. But thats ok. I think we can handle a little constructive criticism once in a while .

 

[zfunk007]

Oh yeah, I forgot what I came on here to really post about! lol... Although it is not a laughing matter.

I think I am going to need to move my Moorish Idol to my 110 FOWLR. He is completely destroying my corals in my 210. He is eating everything now. Stonies, star polyps, zoos, LPS, fire corals, and the list goes on and on.

I came home today to find my 2 Acropora frags near the top of my tank damaged very badly, along with my lime green star polyps eaten. Normally I wouldn't care too much. But I have alot of money put into the lighting system in my tank to grow corals. So thats what I should use it for, to grow corals .

Since my 110 has the same water flowing through it as the 210 (they are hooked up to the same system) pretty much all I have to do is catch the Idol and move him over, this could be tricky though. But I'm going to have to try. And since I am planning on upgrading the 110 soon anyway, I don't think he will have to stay too long in this tank. Plus he will only have 1 companion in there, my broomtail wrasse who has the whole tank to himself right now.

Wish me luck everyone... This is not going to be fun...

 

[Paul B]

"leave them in the ocean"

Don't forget, all of our fish die in our tanks. None are returned to the ocean. I also do not agree that everyone should get an Idol, but some of the people here are very dedicated to their survival.
Most of my fish die of old age, some were 18 years old. I hope to get moorish Idols to live that long some day. I have dove with them in the South Pacific and they are not rare or protected. There are many less common fish that are collected which have virtually no chance or living in a tank. I have kept many moorish Idols and I have learned a lot about them.
If people like Zfunk did not have these dreams of breeding these fish this hobby may die out sooner than you think. They will be banning the collection of tropical fish soon.
Paul

 

[CrazyLionfish]

Okay let me try this, leave them in the ocean OR study/keep them in the ocean OR have what is presumed to be the perfect tank for a moorish idol, size wise, rock structure, feeding scedule, etc..

 

[LivingDeadFish]

zfunk007
Im sure the size of the 110 should be no problem, as long as you have a good amount of rock in there.
my 110 has a 8-10" blue ring angle, an 5 other small or med. fish.

fppf
sorry to hear about gill, an jill.
I had an experance with a powder blue also. the Pb and Idol had lived together 5 months before trouble started. I tried 3 weeks of confinement, an redecorate. it didnt even phase the pb
ended up haveing to relocate the Pb.

ldf

 

[fppf]

While I feel you are correct that QTing may have been a little rough for these fish, it is one of those needed evils in my book.

I lost almost every fish I had because I got an Ich out break followed by a secondary bacterial infection. All of the LFS around here have ich in there systems. Its not an option for me not to QT.

Way to many fish die everyday because of poor handling. Then when they die the LFS blames your water quality. One time I actually had an employee use a test tube that had something in it to make my water show 1 ppm of amonia. I said there is no @$)%ing way, the tank was already running for a year and I just tested the water everyday for the last week with ZERO. I don't buy from that place anymore.

Maybe you would have a better shot if you pluked them out of the ocean your self. Then you could skip the whole bag thing and have them in a nice tank the whole way home. I often wonder if a lot of the fish that die are just doomed the day there caught.

 

[traveller7]

It would appear QT is too frequently confused with "Hospital". Quarantine should always be conducted in a new arrival established system.

fwiw: I use an established fishless 80gal tank to QT rare/delicate clownfish. If they show symptoms requiring treatment they are moved to a "treatment" tank. The QT tank is then left fishless for 8+ weeks. On occasion I will slip in rare/delicate anemones during the fishless cycle, but that is another story ;>)

The key is to such QT is maintaining the fishless discipline to increase odds disease inducing organisms run their cycles and die off.

After seeing some of the real nasties arriving on direct from collector fish, I would never consider putting a new fish directly into my established systems.

 

[zfunk007]

You guys are all right. QT is extremely important in just about all fish cases. However if you are planning on introducing a Moorish Idol to your system (or Regal Angel) I think you have to take the risk and just introduce them. Otherwise it could be detrimental to the fish. I guess I got away with it because I have such a large system (over 500 gallons running through it) so not QTing one fish didn't seem like a big deal to me. And I haven't had any ich problems in my 210.

I know this is a touchy subject and there are a multitude of opinions about it. That just happneds to be mine. QT all fish except extremely delicate ones that need to be introduced to a reef enviroment right away.

On the flip side however, I made the gigantic mistake of introducing a fish without QT into my 110 FOWLR 3 months ago and every fish in that tank came down with a fungus. I moved them all into QT (luckily the fungus didn't make it into my 210). And today after a long fight with the fungus my beautiful queen angel that I caught a few months ago perished....

So yeah, QT is important!!!

 

[KDodds]

I have to agree with zfunk on this. When acclimation or transport is a cause for severe stress in a species that can and does result in its death frequently, I would forego QT.

 

[traveller7]

May I ask what folks consider quarantine procedures that they are/recommend foregoing?

 

[zfunk007]

My QT procedure is as follows:

-55 gallon QT tank
-Dim light (45 watt regular light bulb)
-Hyposalinity (Specific Gravity of 1.009)
-Keep them in for 1 month

It seems to work well. If any fish has ich they lose it within a week or so of being in hypo. If they have any kind of fungus or bacteria infection I treat them with Mardel Maracyn Plus. Which has worked well for me.

My french angel was completely covered in a white fungus and now after 2 weeks of treatment he is completely recovered. Unfortunatly my Queen didn't have that luck. But for the most part I have had success in my QT situation.

 

[Paul B]

I have a theory on this. I believe fish in breeding condition almost never get ich. I know very few if any people will agree with me on this but our fish are hardly ever in breeding condition. Fish in the sea are always laying eggs, every few weeks for small damsels and maybe two months for larger fish. If they are not in that condition, then they will be prone to every disease in your tank. If any of you SCUBA dive (and I know a lot of you do) you will notice on close inspection that wild fish look much better than the fish in our tanks. Most of this is not our fault. It is caused by stress. There are no tangs (that I know of) that live alone, they are schooling fish, if they are alone, even for a few minutes, they get eaten. Schooling fish are in a school for a reason. Moorish Idols are not schooling fish but they do form bonds and I have almost never seen them alone. Fish also like to swim in a certain depth of water, none of them are found in water 18" deep, this is a cause of more stress. Fish also eat all day and have a huge ocean where they can sprint away from danger. We keep them confined in tiny spaces. Anyway if you see what I mean, even though we try to give them the best conditions, it is not even close.
Fish in our tanks may not lay eggs often because of other factors like lack of a mate, nesting site or water depth but they still can be in breeding condition.
I myself do not quarintine anything (but you should) and have not in over 20 years. I can only hope my fish do not get sick because of the condition they are in. My goal is to let them die of old age.
Take care.
Paul

 

[fppf]

I QT with just a tank big enough for the fish with a good filter.
I don't do any treatments unless something goes wrong.
They stay there for 10 weeks and then if nothing shows up they get moved into the main tank. If something shows up then I will treat accordingly.

 

[Shawnts106]

WOW! sorry to hear about your loss, I guess the extreme stress of Mr. Powder Blue kinda got to them

Mine isnt lookig so hot all of a sudden either, dispite his well eatting now, ICH has returned!... this time 3 times worse... with probably 15 ich spots... Im afraid this time he will not make it!.. I will keep everyone posted on it as best I can, but with my busy schedule its very hard to find time!!!


Sorry to hear about your Idol eatting the corals too!... I suspect that when they dont get enough nutrition they resort to eatting anything they can.... this is sad, and unfortunate!!!


QT tanks are a good Idea, in some aspects.. but others bad, because it stresses out some fish, some fish really need a reef type environment in order to acclimate well.. like scotts fair wrasses and such!

I hope that everything turns out ok with everyones Idols, as well as my own!

good luck to all!

 

[KDodds]

Actually, I agree with you Paul. Fish kept in breeding condition are fish kept in tip-top shape. FWIW, my Chromis, the only paired or more SW fish I have right now, besides Seahorses (also breeding, but spastic, they keep missing) are constantly spawning and have been for going on three years now. It's not unusual for me to find, in season, new eggs on a daily basis. It's to the point where they will even be ignored by most of the fish, there are so many of them. Of course, rearing is a virtual impossibility for me. I was careful to choose Centropyge that were very disimilar, or as disimilar as possible being of the same genus, in order to NOT have to worry about one growing to a large, harem-protecting male. Even still, on a couple of occassions, my original CB spawned with my Nox. Again, no reared fry to show for it, but interesting. Interesting as well is that this isn't only true in the SW facet of the hobby. "Tricky" FW fish like F0 Altums and Tetras, Chocolate Gouramis, etc. are almost always MOST successful when someone, somewhere is attempting to get them into "breeding condition".

You may be on to something bigger than most think. When I introduce a new fish, I expect it to live years, and for some a decade or more. And one of teh things that sets most of my tanks apart from others is that the fish are always breeding. I just set-up a JBJ 12g DX for FW planted. I added a foursome of Beckford's Pencils. Within two days, they had already spawned. This is the kind of thing that I take for granted at this point, like my ever breeding Brichardi colony as well.

I'm of the same miind on QT as well. Guys who have been doing this for the same number of decades as many have been doing for merely years have a certain amount of experience and knowledge that allows them to "pick the right fish". Of course, inherent infection and condition at the time of acquisition is only PART of the problem. A well balanced system, as razor thin as that balance may be, in experienced hands, will almost never generate "wipeouts" or even deaths, of introduced fish that have not been quarantined. But, there's more to it than experience too, there's a lot of art (or maybe a science of myriad variables we unconsciously calculate, like a home run hitter) to being able to not use a QT as well.

 

[traveller7]

"sick fish" will breed if the other biological requirements can be met.

I have breeding pairs of A. percula and P. biaculeatus, both pairs have had internal parasites for months. Definitely effects the quality of the clutch but they are not my target breeders and I won't have an available hospital for them, until December. Still breed like clockwork. (there are other examples of such are RC)

IMHO, quarantine is at full "Reef type" condition, in a complete system, that mimics a target space. Not saying you need a 300g if your fish is going into a 300g, but it is not unreasonable to use a 90gal-125gal for such duty. Fish are merely isolated to catch what they bring and allow them to recover from shipping events without it encountering latent pathogens, aggressive inhabitants, etc. Some fish take weeks, some months, or even more.

fwiw: My opinions are heavily colored by some nasty bugs clowns get, even well established, conditioned, and breeding pairs will drop in days when they encounter certain parasites as closely related specimens swim next to them oblivious to the effect. Susceptibility is quite amazingly varied, even among fish in the same Genus.

If such a QT process works for our irreplaceable delicate clowns(my QT is an 80g+55g sump), I don't see why on a larger scale it would not be helpful for you folks trying Moorish Idols.

Side note: Interesting to bring up some of the more challenging FW fish with similar wasting behavior, makes one wonder if the Moorish Idol "wasting" issues might best be tackled with a few doses of "deworming." Anyone try?

 

[KDodds]

Actually, the comparison is not that sick fish will breed, but that fish conditioned to breed are very often far healthier than those that aren't. Would you not say that your "breeders" are a sight healthier than what you see in others' tanks? Breeding is itself, of course, a stress. If separation weren't so problematic with hermaphroditism, I'd separate sick pairs intent on spawning.

FWIW, A. percula and P. biaculeatus are, IMO, not very fine demonstrative species. IMO and IME, they'll spawn just about anywhere, anytime, in just about any health, especially CBs.