Difficult and Special Care Species List

[Aquarist007]

PaulB has been experimenting with bumblebee gobies with good success(of coarse because its PaulB )
These are freshwater/brackish fish that seem to be doing well in 1.026 sea water.
That is not the issue here with my post.
They are cautioned to be fin nippers. I am concerned that if I introduced them to a tank with four 5 inch tangs --whether that would be a problem--or the tangs would just give them a flick and that would be the end of it.

Here is the link to PaulB's trial with them

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1577012&perpage=&pagenumber=3

 

[WaterKeeper]

I've had bumblebees in a seawater tank and it is not so much that they are aggressive but that larger fish seem to regard them as FOOD. I think that is why the hide out in estuaries rather than putting out to sea.

 

[Paul B]

or the tangs would just give them a flick and that would be the end of it.

This would be the answer.

Waterkeeper Old Buddy.

How was Mars? You come on here, suck up $14.00 worth of oxygen and all is well.
No Hello, How are you , drop dead, nothing.
You are lucky i like you.


Did you get your computer lines fixed? How the hell are you?
The Capn had to pick up the slack while you were cutting your toenails. I talked all the Noobs into installing a RUGF.

:lol:

 

[WaterKeeper]

I will have you know I have "People" to cut my diabetic toes.

You and the Cap did a great job in my absence. Of course the cap is easy to feed if you deep fry some bite sized bumblebees.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14506113#post14506113 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper
I will have you know I have "People" to cut my diabetic toes.

You and the Cap did a great job in my absence. Of course the cap is easy to feed if you deep fry some bite sized bumblebees.

I guess I can take that as a compliment from the old fart

BTW
I don't eat fried foods:lol:

 

[Americanreef]

Anyone have opinions about getting copperband butterflys to eat would this be a hard fish to keep.

 

[Paul B]

They are kind of in the middle as to hardiness. If you can get live blackworms, they will be much easier and live a lot longer

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14531594#post14531594 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
They are kind of in the middle as to hardiness. If you can get live blackworms, they will be much easier and live a lot longer

IMO --that is the key to the success of having these--being able to get a hold of black worms for feeding them.
My most recent cbb----RIP---I had for a year and a half. I had it in a qt for six weeks were I got it to eat mysis shrimp.
Paul advised me a few times to try and get black worms for it but it is impossible in this area. It was fat and big very colourful when it died. Overnight is developed symptoms of something wrong internally and died.
this was my third attempt and most successfull. I would advise not to attempt this fish without the black worms.

 

[Paul B]

Overnight is developed symptoms of something wrong internally and died.

Unfortunately, that is what often happens to these fish.
They seem to have that moorish Idol attitude only they live longer.
They are not the most difficult fish but they are difficult to get them to live a long time.
3 or 4 years is not a long time. A long time is about their normal lifespan which for a copperband I don't really know but I would guess at least ten years.
I don't think I have kept one that long yet.

 

[Peter Eichler]

Here's a small sample of the look of the new list, it's pretty time consuming but coming along nicely. There will also be some basic organizing, shifting, additons, and subtractions

Fish To Be Avoided::Fish that have incredibly low survivability in aquaria or are totally unsuitable for home aquaria


Moorish Idol (Zanclus cornutus): A few success stories, but miniscule amounts live long, difficult feeder, mystery deaths, and even when accepting prepared foods often slowly starve

Rock Beauty Angelfish (Holacanthus tricolor): Nearly impossible to meet the dietary needs in home aquaria

Multi-Barred Angelfish (Centropyge multifasciatus): They don't adapt to aquarium life well, rarely eat, and are very secretive, though not fatal, they also seem particularly prone to Lymphocystis

Venustus Angelfish (Centropyge venustus): See the Multi-Barred Angelfish above

Clown Tang (Acanthurus lineatus): VERY ich prone and a finicky eater, horrible survival rates, when they do live they are terribly aggressive and often take over a tank

Twinspot Goby (Signogobius ocellatus) Terrible survival rates in captivity, rarely accept prepared foods or survive long even when they do

....

What do you guys think?

 

[Peter Eichler]

By the way, the Copperband will have a special note with the new improved list, and thanks for the reminder

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14531497#post14531497 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by americanreef
Anyone have opinions about getting copperband butterflys to eat would this be a hard fish to keep.

Fresh clams, oysters, or mussels split open and left in the shell can sometimes entice them to eat.

 

[awesomefam]

Great info, wish I would found this site before I bought a few of my fish. I currently have a CBB that I have had for about 4 years and a Moorish Idol that I have had for about a six months, (grazes on the sponges in my tank). After reading this thread I wonder if they are going to up and die on me now.

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14619678#post14619678 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by awesomefam
Great info, wish I would found this site before I bought a few of my fish. I currently have a CBB that I have had for about 4 years and a Moorish Idol that I have had for about a six months, (grazes on the sponges in my tank). After reading this thread I wonder if they are going to up and die on me now.

I certainly wouldn't worry much about the CBB, just keep doing what you've been doing. The Moorish Idol on the other hand... History tells us that you have reason to be concerned, but if you have a large system and a lot of sponge you're better off than most people that have tried them.

 

[Paul B]

Anyone have opinions about getting copperband butterflys to eat would this be a hard fish to keep.

They are not a hard fish, it is hard to provide the food they eat.
It is the same with many fish, mandarins for instance, I find them a very easy, no maintenance fish but they eat pods and almost nothing else. people insist on trying to feed them pellets along with other things, but if you have a tank full of pods, they are no problem and live for years.
Copperbabds eat worms and they eat them every day. They are also a fish (like a mandarin, seahorse and pipefish) that can not eat a large enough amount in one feeding to last them all day.
Copperbands eat every few minutes, I have followed them in the sea as well as moorish Idols and that is how they eat.
It is our fault when they die, not the fish.
They live perfectly fine in the sea but we need to research these fish we want to keep to see if we can provide the food they need to eat, not what our LFSs can supply.
A copperband would never be able to eat a clam in the sea. There is no one there to open a clam for them. But they did evolve to eat small worms in coral crevases. That is why they have that shape. They will eat all sorts of things but they should have worms almost every day. There is something in worms they need. Clams do not have anywhere near the nutrition of a worm because when we feed clams, we just feed the mantle, the nutrition is in the guts. A worm is eaten whole, guts and all.
The same with feeding squid and fish. These foods are severly lacking in essential oils most fish need.
This is a problem with many foods we try to feed our animals and the reason not many people have 20 year old copperbands or moorish Idols. We are starving them

 

[massman]

Nice list Peter,
Being a collector in Australia, there are some species that I am astonished to see on that list.
Which imo puts it down to solely collection practices.

Leopard wrasses (incl choats) always do well, am really suprised to constantly hear about how poorly they fare.
Bicolour and heralds angels are just as robust as coral beauties, pearl scales etc etc
The only noticeable difference seen is the bicolour's relative inability to tolerate copper treatments. Never sure why this is so.

The one noticeable omission from your difficult group is the Golden angel (c. aurantia) this is a particularly difficult fish to keep generally speaking, and once again I put this down to collection technique.

Cheers

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14670839#post14670839 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by massman
Nice list Peter,
Being a collector in Australia, there are some species that I am astonished to see on that list.
Which imo puts it down to solely collection practices.

Leopard wrasses (incl choats) always do well, am really suprised to constantly hear about how poorly they fare.
Bicolour and heralds angels are just as robust as coral beauties, pearl scales etc etc
The only noticeable difference seen is the bicolour's relative inability to tolerate copper treatments. Never sure why this is so.

The one noticeable omission from your difficult group is the Golden angel (c. aurantia) this is a particularly difficult fish to keep generally speaking, and once again I put this down to collection technique.

Cheers

With the Centropyge the collection is almost certainly the biggest factor. With the wrasses I think that factors in as well but it's more the whole process that is partcularly hard on them. On the edited version of the list some of the wording has been changed and the Angels have been moved down a section.

Here's how the tamarin and leopard wrasses read now.

Tamarin Wrasses (Anampses spp.): Very poor shippers and need tanks with their special needs in mind, even then they often starve to death, their best chance is a large established reef aquarium with large amounts of live rock, peaceful fish, and something to prevent them from jumping out

Leopard Wrasses (Macropharyngodon spp.): See Tamarin Wrasses above, but there are more success stories, both these and the Anampses are boderline being in this area of the list and the next section

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14627539#post14627539 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
They are not a hard fish, it is hard to provide the food they eat.
It is the same with many fish, mandarins for instance, I find them a very easy, no maintenance fish but they eat pods and almost nothing else. people insist on trying to feed them pellets along with other things, but if you have a tank full of pods, they are no problem and live for years.
Copperbabds eat worms and they eat them every day. They are also a fish (like a mandarin, seahorse and pipefish) that can not eat a large enough amount in one feeding to last them all day.
Copperbands eat every few minutes, I have followed them in the sea as well as moorish Idols and that is how they eat.
It is our fault when they die, not the fish.
They live perfectly fine in the sea but we need to research these fish we want to keep to see if we can provide the food they need to eat, not what our LFSs can supply.
A copperband would never be able to eat a clam in the sea. There is no one there to open a clam for them. But they did evolve to eat small worms in coral crevases. That is why they have that shape. They will eat all sorts of things but they should have worms almost every day. There is something in worms they need. Clams do not have anywhere near the nutrition of a worm because when we feed clams, we just feed the mantle, the nutrition is in the guts. A worm is eaten whole, guts and all.
The same with feeding squid and fish. These foods are severly lacking in essential oils most fish need.
This is a problem with many foods we try to feed our animals and the reason not many people have 20 year old copperbands or moorish Idols. We are starving them

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: You've outdone yourself on this post Paul

 

[Paul B]

You've outdone yourself on this post Paul

Thank God, I was up all night trying to get it just right

Anyway, a lot of people are under the impression that if a fish is available in a store, the store also has food apropriate for it.
This of course is not always the case. The LFS around the corner from my home always has nudibranch's, orange spotted filefish, moorish Idols, sea pens, clown groupers, jellyfish etc.
Almost none of these things will live a few months and most of the people buying them are newbees. The LFS of course will sell to anyone which is legal (but unethical) it is not my place to tell them how to run their business. I try to advise them but I can't tell them to limit their sales especially in these economic times when all business are almost out of business, especially a hobby business which is not really a necessity.
It is up to us to research these animals to see if we can keep it.
It is not the stores fault if you buy something you can't properly take care of.
If you buy a car and total it because you don't know how to drive, is it the dealer's fault?
Don't buy those animals, I can guarantee you that you will not have it long.
How many times do we read: "I am good at getting fish to eat so I bought a pair of moorish Idols and put them in my two week old tank, they are eating good and I don't see why there is so much trouble with these fish"
They all eat, and they all die, usually much too soon. Leave these animals to people with much more experience.

:smokin:

 

[Utopia]

The note about the Orange Spotted Filefish is very much correct. The one I am currently keeping took THREE WEEKS to eat in captivity and even now he only eats frozen brine shrimp as far as prepared foods go. I supplement his diet with acroporas, though he seems to prefer eating my maxima, crocea and squamosa clam mantles as well as my chalice corals and montiporas. I have had him for a little over 6 months or so now and he is fat, colorful and has grown an inch or so but it is definitely not a fish for those interested in raising SPS or clams. I currently have him in quarantine while I set up another reef tank for him (no clams and only SPS for food) and I'm hoping he makes the transition flawlessly (I just couldn't handle losing another $60 clam to his appetite!) Other than the food requirements he is a GREAT fish to have. Very friendly and, before I caught him from my main tank, he'd swim straight into my hand while I tried to scrub algae or target feed corals.

I also agree that the Golden Angelfish needs to be added to the list. I don't know if it is because they are caught with chemicals or they are popped but I have yet to hear a success story when it comes to these little beauties.

Depending on how willing you are to cater to one fish's diet the CBBs become easier to keep. I have heard many 3 year + success stories from people with large reefs with plenty of tube worms/feather dusters to supplement a well rounded diet of frozen foods.

By the way, this is a GREAT list and I do think more LFS need to adopt spreading this information as opposed to making the easiest and most lucrative sale. Kudos to this thread and the RC forums for being so informative! Saving a lot of fishs' lives and hobbyists' trouble!

Edit: The filefish had been in the store for a month prior to me purchasing him so technically 7 months in captivity and thriving! Hoping he continues to do so.