Do fish feel pain?

[mperales]

Makes me think of other mamals giving birth. They seem to be relatively unfazed by the process but it's excrutiating for humans.

Please don't extrapolate this paper with pain in mammals. I can tell you for a fact that mammals do have pain / discomfort when giving birth. I have been around many dog births where the female cries out as the pup(s) are passing the birth canal (try giving birth to 14 puppies). I have seen dogs in excruciating pain when they herniate a disc or fracture a bone.
I may be interpreting the quoted statement totally wrong in that you now might now think that pain in some mammals is not as severe as what we humans "feel". Remember, we humans add subjectivity to pain.
If my interpretation of your statement is incorrect, I apologize.

 

[passedpawn]

As a veterinarian, this is something that we struggle with. I am only a small animal (dogs and cats) guy, but it can be really difficult to recognize every variation of pain even in them. We usually assume, for our patients, that they feel everything you ad I would feel and try to treat appropriately with NSAIDS, Opiates, etc. We certainly think they also suffer anxiety, depression, and a variety of emotions that we would all experience. But it is difficult to know for sure and you have to be careful how you interpret the signs. Some Basset Hounds look like they never had a happy day in their lives but only because we interpret facial expressions the same way we would interpret human expression. In fact, I think dogs can feel emotions more keenly than humans do because they seem to lack some of the inhibitory side of the neural system that humans have. Do they feel pain more keenly? It sure doesn't seem so. This article suggests that fish don't feel pain because they lack the receptors that key pain in us. Their neural systems are simpler than ours and I don't think they suffer anxiety. There would be an obvious evolutionary advantage to registering a painful or unpleasant sensation to trigger a defensive response. I would think that an emotion like joy or anxiety would be a distinct disadvantage. Joy might make you exhibit behaviour that was otherwise inappropriate (turning backflips is an invitation to being eaten). An anxious fish would never leave his hiding hole to feed or mate. Overall, I think this article is saying that they do not experience pain they way we do but they obviously register painful or noxious stimuli. They probably have no capacity to associate an emotion with pain the way we do. Just mental ramblings.

Mc

^^ this

 

[Paul B]

The vet heading up our dept. of lab animal research is rather bothered by the typical lack of anesthesia for such field surgery. This should help me with those discussions.

I guess he doesn't go fishing Bill

 

[Luiz Rocha]

The vet heading up our dept. of lab animal research is rather bothered by the typical lack of anesthesia for such field surgery. This should help me with those discussions.

I collect a lot of the fish for my research by spear fishing, and kill the fish that don't die with the spear impact using a knife on their head. Many times I also release the fish if I know it will survive. Some time ago I sent this description to an animal care committee (IACUC) to ask for a permit, and they suggested me to anesthetize the fish before spearing them.

 

[mperales]

Yeah, as a Veterinarian I will grant you that some vets in "academia / animal care comittees" tend to lose sight of reality / common sense. Some of them tend to be a bit on the extreme, if you know what I mean :lol:

 

[Dr. Reef]

i like to share a personal experience.
i was moving a freshwater small 3" catfish with a net and its fins behind the gills got stuck/tangled in the net. after many many tries i could not get it released and i couldnt keep it out of water for long.
so i went into disparate mode and started using a box knife to cut open the net.
at some point the blade slipped and cut the fin and net as same time.
a few drops of blood can out of the fish and i saw a reaction on the fish as it felt that blade cut through the body.
i cant explain the reaction but it was similar of us as humans with a paper cut and out hands retract fast due to pain or something.
anyways i released the fish and it went on to live for very very long time.
so judging from that experience i think they do feel pain.

 

[Paul B]

I have been diving in the Keys this week and especially right near the mangroves and I notice when the numerous baby barracuda eat the bait fish, they always give them a tranquilizer first. It's amazing

 

[ken55]

Please don't extrapolate this paper with pain in mammals. I can tell you for a fact that mammals do have pain / discomfort when giving birth. I have been around many dog births where the female cries out as the pup(s) are passing the birth canal (try giving birth to 14 puppies). I have seen dogs in excruciating pain when they herniate a disc or fracture a bone.
I may be interpreting the quoted statement totally wrong in that you now might now think that pain in some mammals is not as severe as what we humans "feel". Remember, we humans add subjectivity to pain.
If my interpretation of your statement is incorrect, I apologize.

Fair enough point. I too have witnessed dogs in pain. I wasn't thinking of dogs specifically but more of the nature shows about wild animals. For example the ones where mama Gazelle gives birth, walks around, grazes for a few minutes and when baby can stand up they both walk away. That sort of thing.

Nor was I trying to derail the thread or change the topic. I was just trying to say that it was an intersting topic that was making me think about it in ways that I hadn't before.

I'll return to the back of the class now.

 

[ReefPharmer]

IMO humans have an over-developed sense of pain due to our position at the top of the foodchain through evolution. We have time to think about our pain, expand on our inner throughts and feelings, etc.
When a fish sustains damage (for ex that catfish from a few posts up), it def feels something unpleasant and tries to escape the situation with a typical flight response. However, part of OUR feelings of pain is the expectation of pain and imo somewhat of a placebo effect. We sustain an injury and escape the immediate situation with some sort of damage. We examine our damage, and our brain receptors receive the feedback from the damaged site. To those with a low threshold of pain, the mind adds feelings of pain to what they already physically feeling. Those with a high threshold can withstand much higher levels of injury due to the supression of feelings of pain.

For example, a friend has a very low threshold for any sort of pain. She bumps herself on anything at all and here come the tears. She almost expects pain, thinks about it and that expectation increases her feelings of it.

Going back to fish, I do not think fish "think" or have the ability to expect oncoming pain. They feel pain, escape the situation and forget about it quickly with the exception of the Pavlov's system of experience building - avoiding the net, fish hooks, etc. It serves them well because "wallowing in pain" even for a few seconds, would mean that much more time for a predator to strike again.
If we the people were part of the foodchain instead of being on top of it, we would spend much less time feeling pain, and more time trying to survive. We are victims of our own evolutionary success.

 

[MandarinFan]

Commenting to say I've enjoyed reading all the responses and thoughts in this thread. Definitely something to think about...

 

[nanomania]

i dono the science, but well anything living do feel stress atleast, thats worst than pain... if u study about plants, grow a plant, abuse and curse it 3 times a day or more, it will start dying..... these are still fish... in bags they loose their colour and the happier they are in the tank, the better the colour is, that shows they are sensitive and are not stress proof.. i hope these scientist dont start poking needles in them to test it..its ridiculous... its jus that we humans cant see their feeling as they cant talk but well it does hurt them... see the dolphin slaughter vids and seehow they shiver when they are slaughtered.... its sad..

 

[billsreef]

I collect a lot of the fish for my research by spear fishing, and kill the fish that don't die with the spear impact using a knife on their head. Many times I also release the fish if I know it will survive. Some time ago I sent this description to an animal care committee (IACUC) to ask for a permit, and they suggested me to anesthetize the fish before spearing them.

IACUC members that know anything about fish are a rare occurrence. I expect your is like mine, all rodent, dog/cat, primate vets and medical researchers.

i like to share a personal experience.
i was moving a freshwater small 3" catfish with a net and its fins behind the gills got stuck/tangled in the net. after many many tries i could not get it released and i couldnt keep it out of water for long.
so i went into disparate mode and started using a box knife to cut open the net.
at some point the blade slipped and cut the fin and net as same time.
a few drops of blood can out of the fish and i saw a reaction on the fish as it felt that blade cut through the body.
i cant explain the reaction but it was similar of us as humans with a paper cut and out hands retract fast due to pain or something.
anyways i released the fish and it went on to live for very very long time.
so judging from that experience i think they do feel pain.

The trick here, was it a "pain" response or a simple tactile reaction? Even in humans, there is often a reflexive response to such stimuli that occurs moments before any pain is registered.

i dono the science, but well anything living do feel stress atleast, thats worst than pain... if u study about plants, grow a plant, abuse and curse it 3 times a day or more, it will start dying..... these are still fish... in bags they loose their colour and the happier they are in the tank, the better the colour is, that shows they are sensitive and are not stress proof.. i hope these scientist dont start poking needles in them to test it..its ridiculous... its jus that we humans cant see their feeling as they cant talk but well it does hurt them... see the dolphin slaughter vids and seehow they shiver when they are slaughtered.... its sad..

Stress is a completely different subject from pain, as it is entirely possible to be stressed without any pain...even for humans.

In regards to the dolphin slaughter, they are higher order mammals with a well devoloped brain and nervous system. Again, much different than fish.

 

[nanomania]

Billsreef.... yup i do know that stress is different, but dont you think that its worst than pain... im talking about the scientiests that wants to experiment on anything and everything, but they dont realise that it causes stress to animals... even if it doesnt feel pain, the do get stress when they are experimenting.... nothing else... for once leave the science alone, and just enjoy their beauty...

 

[billsreef]

Most marine science people I know do realize fish are stressed by some research activities. Short term stress, such as from tagging, is considered acceptable...and it does lead to information that is useful. Long term stress, such as from improper culture set ups in the lab is to be avoided....after all it negatively effects survival and can negate the research results.

 

[mperales]

im talking about the scientiests that wants to experiment on anything and everything, but they dont realise that it causes stress to animals... even if it doesn't feel pain, the do get stress when they are experimenting.... nothing else... for once leave the science alone, and just enjoy their beauty...

I think that some people have a misconception that a lot of research involves probes, electrodes, Tesla coils and torturing animals. Though sadly in early years that might have been the case, we seem to be going the totally opposite way (as Bill could attest) for better or for worse. With all of the animal committees, research committees and animal rights people, you better have a darn good reason why you need to do what you are doing in your research.

You mention experiments causes stress. Lets take tagging whale sharks as an example. Those few minutes of "discomfort and stress" for that fish could mean a lot for the preservation of the species. We learn a lot about the migration patterns, feeding grounds, breeding grounds etc. If you think about it, fish in the wild live in constant stress: finding food, avoiding being food, finding shelter. So in the lower ranks of the animal kingdom, stress is a part of life.

Some research is invaluable for the advancement of medical, surgical and pharmaceutical treatment of animals and humans. As Mr. Spock would say: " The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"

A lot of researchers do enjoy the beauty of nature and are trying to preserve it not harm it... and no I'm not a researcher.

 

[Paul B]

I hope they don't feel pain as I had a nice ocean triggerfish fillet for dinner this week in the Keys. :wavehand:

 

[nanomania]

I think that some people have a misconception that a lot of research involves probes, electrodes, Tesla coils and torturing animals. Though sadly in early years that might have been the case, we seem to be going the totally opposite way (as Bill could attest) for better or for worse. With all of the animal committees, research committees and animal rights people, you better have a darn good reason why you need to do what you are doing in your research.

You mention experiments causes stress. Lets take tagging whale sharks as an example. Those few minutes of "discomfort and stress" for that fish could mean a lot for the preservation of the species. We learn a lot about the migration patterns, feeding grounds, breeding grounds etc. If you think about it, fish in the wild live in constant stress: finding food, avoiding being food, finding shelter. So in the lower ranks of the animal kingdom, stress is a part of life.

Some research is invaluable for the advancement of medical, surgical and pharmaceutical treatment of animals and humans. As Mr. Spock would say: " The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"

A lot of researchers do enjoy the beauty of nature and are trying to preserve it not harm it... and no I'm not a researcher.

Well stress related to experimenting on not only fishes, but all animals.... tagging for conservation is a completely different thing.... i was waching a show on discovery, and some so called marine biologists found a new species of damsel, they killed it and stored it in sm chemical and disected it..... rubbish.. it was so dam beautiful....my question is why everything discovered new has to be killed?? also like monkeys sent to space and used for testing cosmetics and medicine and but obvious wether they feel pain or no (the main topic of discussion)... its jus so crazy.... here we love this hobby, which is our passion, and here sm people eat the fishes we pet, its like eating ur own dog breed....

 

[KafudaFish]

Because you don't realize that it is a new species until you have taken it back to the lab and had a chance to properly ID the animal. Some specimens will just look different and the researcher will make a judgement call of using a kill jar.

It could be days to months before the animal is taken out of the bottle and examined.

If there are enough characters that do not fit into a described species then the researcher can have the specimen verified by another authority. Depending on that outcome, the researcher would publish the findings as a new species.

For your damsel example there may have been several characters that did not fit such as scale counts, or ratio of pelvic fin to eye ball diameter etc.

 

[nanomania]

well they cud have kept it in an aquarium alive atleast... i saw an episode of "fishtank kings", where they made a new species tank for a public aquarium, without killing any...... Just enjoy the beauty of nature, rather than disecting and killing it.... if u discovered something new, keep it that way studying it in wild or in captivity is enough...

 

[Paul B]

here we love this hobby, which is our passion, and here sm people eat the fishes we pet, its like eating ur own dog breed....

I eat fish almost every day as my family had a seafood business. I don't eat my pets. They are to small anyway but I do eat tuna, cod, makeral, sardines and every other fish and crustacean from the sea. I don't hardly eat red meat so I guess I save there. If people never ate animals or wore animal products, there would be very few people in the world, just some skinny vegetarians.
I would never kill a living thing just for fun but fish are there to eat, if we did not eat them, other fish would eat them as a fish is not an animal that almost ever dies of old age, they are always eaten as they grow to old and slow to catch their own prey.
No one can argue my love of this hobby as I have had a fish tank of some kind every day for 60 years.
Now I am going to eat some flounder. And I don't think they feel pain.