Lanthanum chloride
- Thread starter Gary Majchrzak
- Start date
can you be more specific -
did you use a filter bag?
was a skimmer running?
were you running any other filter methods?
did you use a filter bag?
was a skimmer running?
were you running any other filter methods?
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC
Does lanthanum chloride interact with other things we dose?
I'm going off on a tangent here, but could it be possible to spike some other product we're already dosing in order to cut down on the number of "things" we're dosing? Similar to how some people spike kalk solution with vinegar to get carbon into their system - Can we simply put a calculated amount of lanthanum chloride into a kalk vat and dose both together?
I'm going off on a tangent here, but could it be possible to spike some other product we're already dosing in order to cut down on the number of "things" we're dosing? Similar to how some people spike kalk solution with vinegar to get carbon into their system - Can we simply put a calculated amount of lanthanum chloride into a kalk vat and dose both together?
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
I soak mine in a bucket of 50/50 bleach/water and I've been using the same ones since I started dosing LaCl3.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
I don't know the chemistry behind this but I can tell you mixing LaCl3 into limewater is probably an extremely bad idea.
For a more accurate explanantion I would ask a chemist WHY.
SPotter
Active member
Gary, where do you get your bags from? I just got some from utahbiodiesel and the ring for the opening appears to be metal.
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC
Well, I guess I'll let it stew in this thread and if no chemists show up I'll go ask in the chemistry forum...
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
I got my 10 micron bags from a local medical supply place a couple of blocks from here
Mine have stainless steel rings.
SPotter
Active member
I got my 10 micron bags from a local medical supply place a couple of blocks from here
Mine have stainless steel rings.
I will have to do some searching. I realized this after rinsing the sock and then noticing some "rust" color coming thru the felt around the ring.
It binds to orthophospahte(PO4 species),carbonate , nitrogen, carbon, sulfur, phosphorus, boron, selenium, silicon and arsenic and reacts with all the halogens(F - fluorine ,Cl - chlorine, Br - bromine,I - iodine, At - astatine) at varying temperatures and ph levels. It's pretty active ,so mixing it up with other elements and retaining it's abiilty to bind phosphate is not likely to work well as far as I can tell.
In particular, I think it would readily precipitate to lanathaum cabonate in limewater or might pick up some oxide.
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In particular, I think it would readily precipitate to lanathaum cabonate in limewater or might pick up some oxide.
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Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
if you have SS rings oxidation should be negligible and it's not lethal
SPotter
Active member
I just emailed them to see what they use in the ring.
Stainless steel looses it's anti corrosive ability when not exposed to oxygen. It will corrode in water and salty conditions.
Stainless steel resists corrosion through a process known as passivation which occurs only when then chromium content is high enough and in the presence of oxygen. Corrosion is blocked from penetrating the metal .It does not work as well uderwater or completely in high salt conditions like salt mist around our tanks.
If it's put in the water it looses it's anti corrosive quality .
That's from a post of mine in this thread which contains a good deal of information about stainless steel and elements it might leach:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2197327&highlight=stainless+steel
If it's put in the water it looses it's anti corrosive quality .Though most of it is iron there may be significant toxic nickel there depending on the grade of the stainless and some trace copper and other traces.
These posts by Sport 507, a metalugist
( #s 14 and 19 and the thubnail tell the story :
Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by disc1
I doubt that they are pure iron. If those clamps are galvanized like a lot of them are then they will leach zinc. That could be deadly. Never put metals in the tank. Never.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
+1
I work in metallurgy for a very high profile metals company and all stainless steels contain trace amounts of copper and other elements, which are not required to be reported by the ASTM or AMS material specifications. They are not relevant to the overall composition and intended use that the metal was designed for. So you will not find them when you look up the chemistry. There is only one stainless steel what will not corrode in seawater and that is Nitronic 50.
All others will corrode and release element in seawater at different rates.
Yes, keep ALL metals out of your reef tank water, it not an option but a must.
__________________
Sport
and
Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by tmz
Thanks for the information Sport.
I agree stainless steel rusts.
I agree keep any metal out of the water and plastic is better in most out of the water applications where rust may drop into the water too.
For information's sake,trace impurities are in most everything we use ; is copper or zinc content known or is data on combined impurities as a % of various stainless steel grades available?
In my first post I noted my understanding that the clamp the op was using was out of the water and that any corrosion would be mostly iron.I also recommended polyfilter and /or cuprisorb and gac because of potential impurities from some flaking rust dropping into the water or a toxin perhaps from failed electrical equipment. If he put the in line heater the water for example.
My point was and is simply that I would not assume the clamps are the problem given the stated issues with ph, alkalinity and changes in nutreint levels and pellet use.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
No they are not combined but listed separately and yes in % or in some alloys PPM.
Here is a material certification from a very high end stainless steel. I have underlined only the elements that are required per; the above specifications. All the required elements have a min-max range and those not really needed will have a max range, like copper in this example has a max of .75%. Any over that and it will not meet spec. and the Heat will be scraped. Heats for mills are typically 40K lbs and that a lot of money. Chemistry matters.
The other trace elements are interesting.
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__________________
Sport
Stainless steel resists corrosion through a process known as passivation which occurs only when then chromium content is high enough and in the presence of oxygen. Corrosion is blocked from penetrating the metal .It does not work as well uderwater or completely in high salt conditions like salt mist around our tanks.
If it's put in the water it looses it's anti corrosive quality .
That's from a post of mine in this thread which contains a good deal of information about stainless steel and elements it might leach:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2197327&highlight=stainless+steel
If it's put in the water it looses it's anti corrosive quality .Though most of it is iron there may be significant toxic nickel there depending on the grade of the stainless and some trace copper and other traces.
These posts by Sport 507, a metalugist
( #s 14 and 19 and the thubnail tell the story :
Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by disc1
I doubt that they are pure iron. If those clamps are galvanized like a lot of them are then they will leach zinc. That could be deadly. Never put metals in the tank. Never.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
+1
I work in metallurgy for a very high profile metals company and all stainless steels contain trace amounts of copper and other elements, which are not required to be reported by the ASTM or AMS material specifications. They are not relevant to the overall composition and intended use that the metal was designed for. So you will not find them when you look up the chemistry. There is only one stainless steel what will not corrode in seawater and that is Nitronic 50.
All others will corrode and release element in seawater at different rates.
Yes, keep ALL metals out of your reef tank water, it not an option but a must.
__________________
Sport
and
Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by tmz
Thanks for the information Sport.
I agree stainless steel rusts.
I agree keep any metal out of the water and plastic is better in most out of the water applications where rust may drop into the water too.
For information's sake,trace impurities are in most everything we use ; is copper or zinc content known or is data on combined impurities as a % of various stainless steel grades available?
In my first post I noted my understanding that the clamp the op was using was out of the water and that any corrosion would be mostly iron.I also recommended polyfilter and /or cuprisorb and gac because of potential impurities from some flaking rust dropping into the water or a toxin perhaps from failed electrical equipment. If he put the in line heater the water for example.
My point was and is simply that I would not assume the clamps are the problem given the stated issues with ph, alkalinity and changes in nutreint levels and pellet use.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
No they are not combined but listed separately and yes in % or in some alloys PPM.
Here is a material certification from a very high end stainless steel. I have underlined only the elements that are required per; the above specifications. All the required elements have a min-max range and those not really needed will have a max range, like copper in this example has a max of .75%. Any over that and it will not meet spec. and the Heat will be scraped. Heats for mills are typically 40K lbs and that a lot of money. Chemistry matters.
The other trace elements are interesting.
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__________________
Sport
Are you diluting before dosing with a 1.1 pump? Do you have the 3000PPB or 9000PPB formula (should say on the label somewhere - the CR is 3000PPB though I wonder if some do not say CR and are still 3000PPB)
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
keep ALL metals out of your reef tank water, it not an option but a must.
Great post by sport, Tom... however there's the ideal world and there's the REAL world. We know keeping ALL metals out of your aquarium is an impossibility. Powerheads, pumps, hangars etc. all have metal parts. Foods, artificial salt mixes etc. all contain metals.
Heck, we use granular ferric oxide to lower PO4 levels. RUST! (Ok.. not EXACTLY rust but it gets the point across!)
There's probably more metals in any given reef aquarium from sources such as fish foods and artifcial salt mixes than what's oxidizes from a prop shaft or a sock ring.
edit: Dosing LaCl3 into a reef aquarium is much more of a crucial concern than the SS ring on a filter sock
Great post by sport, Tom... however there's the ideal world and there's the REAL world. We know keeping ALL metals out of your aquarium is an impossibility. Powerheads, pumps, hangars etc. all have metal parts. Foods, artificial salt mixes etc. all contain metals.
Heck, we use granular ferric oxide to lower PO4 levels. RUST! (Ok.. not EXACTLY rust but it gets the point across!)
There's probably more metals in any given reef aquarium from sources such as fish foods and artifcial salt mixes than what's oxidizes from a prop shaft or a sock ring.
edit: Dosing LaCl3 into a reef aquarium is much more of a crucial concern than the SS ring on a filter sock
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injected solution at 1ml/liter of RODI into air intake of skimmer, skimmer drain is via a 10 micron sock [total of about 500ml of solution]. This lanthanum system is standalone from the rest of the system with the usual filtration - skimmer, socks, carbon, gfo
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC
Pascal, anecdotally speaking, how is that sock loading up? Does the skimmate appear to contain much material at all?
With a filter sock on the output of a skimmer I'm wondering if you could drop down a size (5 micron) and capture more of the precipitate without risking capturing other "stuff".
With a filter sock on the output of a skimmer I'm wondering if you could drop down a size (5 micron) and capture more of the precipitate without risking capturing other "stuff".
SPotter
Active member
I have the 9000 ppb formula and I was diluting 1.5ml per 1L of water. I wanted to make a larger stock solution so I mixed 5.5ml with 1g of RODI. I have been dripping 240ml per day of the solution for three days now with no clogging or hazing. Po4 started at .10 and was down to .075 last night. once I get it into the range I want I will cut back on the daily doses.
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Thanks. With the 9000ppb solution you are getting .025 reduction with .375 ml of solution for 300 gallons.
That is: .01 ppm of phosphate reduction per 100 gallons with .5 ml
Pretty impressive.
I'm dosing on a friends system which had high phosphate tonga in it (a lot of it). We pulled the rocks making it hard to gauge what is going on. Once we stabilize the phosphate I would like to establish a metric for reduction with lanthanum
That's an excellent suggestion. I haven't been at Dans house since I set it up. In conversation it sounds like the soak is not loading up at all. We did a baseline run with the lanthanum skimmer, takes 3 days with no lanthanum to clog the sock. Based on the first run there was little impact on the sock.
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