yes, just drip SLOWLY so you don't overwhelm the filter sock's ability to catch the LC precipitates and make sure you don't let the filter clog and overflow, which can happen relatively quickly depending on how high your phosphate is and the drip rate, so in the beginning check it often. Also, lowering phosphate too quickly can cause corals to suffer
Lanthanum chloride
- Thread starter Gary Majchrzak
- Start date
yes, just drip SLOWLY so you don't overwhelm the filter sock's ability to catch the LC precipitates and make sure you don't let the filter clog and overflow, which can happen relatively quickly depending on how high your phosphate is and the drip rate, so in the beginning check it often. Also, lowering phosphate too quickly can cause corals to suffer
Dustin1300
Reefaholic
I mixed you up with Sheldon (Scej12). He's been using it in multiple skimmers as the input as well as many others. Joe with his huge reef, went and checked out Bill Wann's 22k reef weekend before last and he dosed in skimmer so I think your problem is more directly linked to the higher concentration. If you had lower concentration and dripped a little more frequently I don't think you'd see that problem.
Once I have skimmer in place I plan to run doser and drip into inlet of my skimmer, then have the skimmer output drop to a filter sock to pick up any of the residual precipitate the skimmer did not process. Hopefully the Dart gold pushing around 4400 gph in my skimmer will make sure it stays suspended and topples the foam head!
just happened to notice someone having a problem after dripping LC into a skimmer over on the chemistry forum:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2246200
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2246200
Dustin1300
Reefaholic
Venturi skimmers are known to be maintenance nightmares and clog with or without LaCl so I would not count that one and he was also dosing directly into the air line for the venturi which is just asking for problems IMO. I'd feed directly into my 2" inlet on my skimmer. Any other ones you've seen because I've not heard of any issues you were referencing earlier?
if you saw the glass sump where the filter sock I was dripping in (very conservatively) you would not drip LC into a good skimmer, the crystallization was everywhere and rock hard, I would not want that going on inside my skimmers. If you are set on doing it I would get a used inexpensive skimmer dedicated to LC use.
Dustin1300
Reefaholic
That means you're dosing too much and it's too concentrated. That water becomes cloudy from the mixture, sticks to glass rather than forming a participate right away and being filter out by sock (In your case).
Experiment with a lower concentration where the precipitate gets filtered out in the sock and I don't believe you'll continue to have your problem.
nope, was dosing extremely slowly, drip rate on a peristaltic pump at rate of one drip every 10 seconds, water was not cloudy at all
I've used LC for years and I have a lot of experience using it
andrew2010
New member
I use a spa clarifier from sparco.. the chemical line is called simple blue. Product name is fresh start. This is not LC but an aluminum poly chloride. I find it very efficient due to its main binders remove phosphate copper and iron. This is a liquid form of aluminum oxide which was used in reef tanks for years as a phosphate remover. the nice thing about this is due to it being formulated for a spa it stays suspended until it is filtered out (no settling) and it is not as concentrated @4 0z for 600 gallons of treatment. I add 5 ml to my skimmer twice a day and it has helped immensely. what is not skimmed out immediately will be subsequently filtered thru my sock or skimmer before my second dose without clouding the water or settling on the rock or coral. Btw the company "claims " it helps with ozone water clarification ( also used in spas (note: ozonators for spas are very cheap in comparison to reef ozonators))I have not tried ozone but it is crossing my mind. For what its worth aluminum poly chlorides are used in spas to reduce the copper and zinc that is produced in spa ionizers and as a clarifier.
Dustin1300
Reefaholic
Well, I appreciate the heads up. I plan to use on a needlewheel custom Bill Wann skimmer I just picked up a few weeks back and will share my experience with everyone once I have it up and running.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
why
why
would you gunk up a skimmer with this?
A CUSTOM skimmer no less.
I mean.. anyone that has used LaCl3 extensively will tell you that every surface it touches will become STICKY.
Of course LaCl3 will "work" when dosed into a skimmer, but why do it?
Use a filter sock or mechanical filter of some type. Something that's easy to remove and clean!
why
would you gunk up a skimmer with this?
A CUSTOM skimmer no less.
I mean.. anyone that has used LaCl3 extensively will tell you that every surface it touches will become STICKY.
Of course LaCl3 will "work" when dosed into a skimmer, but why do it?
Use a filter sock or mechanical filter of some type. Something that's easy to remove and clean!
Last edited:
Dustin1300
Reefaholic
Because it's an experiment. Many others have done it and believe that it is due to the low turbulence in sumps that allows the LaCl mixture to crystallize on the glass/walls. Skimmer body and neck is about 40-50 gallons and will have 4,400 GPH circulated within it. That combined with the air pump makes for the best reaction chamber and the pressure upward which should prevent the flocs from settling out or having tie to settle on the surfaces.
Should I notice a crystallization on the surfaces of the skimmer, I'll change methods.
andrew2010
New member
lab test on carp for aluminum poly chloride..
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20027170
Results: minimal risk of toxicity at normal usage(same as all of our additives). Bad bad results if fish are in over dosed water (duh)..
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20027170
Results: minimal risk of toxicity at normal usage(same as all of our additives). Bad bad results if fish are in over dosed water (duh)..
Not Directly into Skimmer for me...
Not Directly into Skimmer for me...
Hi Dustin - Sorry about the delay in responding... I've been doing quite a bit of juggling these days, and have quite simply been behind on all fronts.
However just to chime in on my own findings I would have to say that I agree with the advice you've been receiving from Elliott, Gary and others. In my experiments I've not actually ever dripped directly into the skimmer, for no other reason than I've been aiming to allow enough of a reaction period prior to the mechanical removal which in my cases were skimmers as opposed to filter socks. In my original setup, I used a 5 gallon pail as the reaction zone which then drained into the skimmer via one of the needle wheel venturi pumps. Inevitably, I would get precipitates collecting in the volute of the one pump, as I think that the 5 gallon pail was still too small of a reaction area to facilitate all of the precipitation process prior to the water passing through the skimmer. For me this was not a huge problem as I can quite easily remove these small pumps and clean them up.
In my second setup, I used those Home Depot filter canisters (similar to the large BRS canisters) as the pre skimmer (mechanical) reaction zone. I used 1/4" polyethylene line to feed into this system of three canisters and back toward the sump via one of two large skimmers. The first of the three canisters had a recirculation pump; and as it turned out this is where the crystalization on the acrylic took place; not on the subsequent (slow flow) canisters. I tend to believe that the higher water flow (not higher LaCl concentration) acts as a catalyst to crystalization (not sure but perhaps the water movement; heat; or some other factor energizes the particles to stick to surfaces). If you've ever left salt premixing in a vat for a couple of days as I often do, the first thing you notice is that yellow/white calcification that sticks to the walls... this doesn't happen if you mix the salt at the time of use then turn off the recirc pump.
In the latter setup I find that I get build-up in the lines (both pe and pvc lines) from precipitate; similar to how kalkwasser can build-up in a closed loop system over time. more importantly, I've found that although much of the reaction takes place in the three canisters, I do believe that some of the reaction takes place downstream in the pe line which leads back to the skimmer, as every month or two I have to change out the pe lines... mind you it could also be the case that precipitate flows out of the reaction canisters into these lines, however, I doubt this is fully the case since the flow thru the second and third reactors is so slow that most of the precipitate should settle out within.
Having said all that, in the second system described I don't get any buildup in my becketts or skimmer body that I can find. I credit this to having a slower reaction period prior to the skimmer portion of the system so that most of the reaction takes place prior and so that I'm using the skimmer as the mechanical component as opposed to both the reaction and mechanical component.
HTH
As mentioned above, I think the crystalization is more likely to occur within a higher flow scenario - think of a salt premixing vat - I think (without being a chemist; so anecdotally speaking) that heat and/or water movement helps to energize the particles which form structures on surfaces.
In my cases the pumps are compact enough that I can throw both them and their attached plumbing into a 5 gallon pail of straight vinegar for a day or three to dissolve off the crystalization. I just did that with my little eheim hobby pump before bringing my second system back on line. My fear for your system is that it will be difficult to clean out the volute and needle wheel of your dart pump which I'm 95% sure will get precipitate and crystalized buildup over the course of a month or three.
So just to clarify my own experiments, I've only ever used the skimmer as mechanical filtration, in lieu of filter socks; and I've found the following:
Hopefully I can get back to a quick response this time round, but I hope this helps more than it confuses the perspective.
Regards,
Sheldon
Not Directly into Skimmer for me...
Hi Dustin - Sorry about the delay in responding... I've been doing quite a bit of juggling these days, and have quite simply been behind on all fronts.
However just to chime in on my own findings I would have to say that I agree with the advice you've been receiving from Elliott, Gary and others. In my experiments I've not actually ever dripped directly into the skimmer, for no other reason than I've been aiming to allow enough of a reaction period prior to the mechanical removal which in my cases were skimmers as opposed to filter socks. In my original setup, I used a 5 gallon pail as the reaction zone which then drained into the skimmer via one of the needle wheel venturi pumps. Inevitably, I would get precipitates collecting in the volute of the one pump, as I think that the 5 gallon pail was still too small of a reaction area to facilitate all of the precipitation process prior to the water passing through the skimmer. For me this was not a huge problem as I can quite easily remove these small pumps and clean them up.
In my second setup, I used those Home Depot filter canisters (similar to the large BRS canisters) as the pre skimmer (mechanical) reaction zone. I used 1/4" polyethylene line to feed into this system of three canisters and back toward the sump via one of two large skimmers. The first of the three canisters had a recirculation pump; and as it turned out this is where the crystalization on the acrylic took place; not on the subsequent (slow flow) canisters. I tend to believe that the higher water flow (not higher LaCl concentration) acts as a catalyst to crystalization (not sure but perhaps the water movement; heat; or some other factor energizes the particles to stick to surfaces). If you've ever left salt premixing in a vat for a couple of days as I often do, the first thing you notice is that yellow/white calcification that sticks to the walls... this doesn't happen if you mix the salt at the time of use then turn off the recirc pump.
In the latter setup I find that I get build-up in the lines (both pe and pvc lines) from precipitate; similar to how kalkwasser can build-up in a closed loop system over time. more importantly, I've found that although much of the reaction takes place in the three canisters, I do believe that some of the reaction takes place downstream in the pe line which leads back to the skimmer, as every month or two I have to change out the pe lines... mind you it could also be the case that precipitate flows out of the reaction canisters into these lines, however, I doubt this is fully the case since the flow thru the second and third reactors is so slow that most of the precipitate should settle out within.
Having said all that, in the second system described I don't get any buildup in my becketts or skimmer body that I can find. I credit this to having a slower reaction period prior to the skimmer portion of the system so that most of the reaction takes place prior and so that I'm using the skimmer as the mechanical component as opposed to both the reaction and mechanical component.
HTH
As mentioned above, I think the crystalization is more likely to occur within a higher flow scenario - think of a salt premixing vat - I think (without being a chemist; so anecdotally speaking) that heat and/or water movement helps to energize the particles which form structures on surfaces.
In my cases the pumps are compact enough that I can throw both them and their attached plumbing into a 5 gallon pail of straight vinegar for a day or three to dissolve off the crystalization. I just did that with my little eheim hobby pump before bringing my second system back on line. My fear for your system is that it will be difficult to clean out the volute and needle wheel of your dart pump which I'm 95% sure will get precipitate and crystalized buildup over the course of a month or three.
So just to clarify my own experiments, I've only ever used the skimmer as mechanical filtration, in lieu of filter socks; and I've found the following:
- Some of the reaction occurs late: i.e. you can get precipitates forming after filter socks; or settling zone for sure - depending on your allowed time/water volume prior to mechanical resolution.... I do think precipitates are picked up on a second or third pass provided you can keep them in suspension for long enough to make it back to your mechanical solution of choice;
- precipitation will occur within plumbing lines as well as within the reaction chambers of whatever strategy you use. I think at points of high water flow you will get stubborn crystalization: i.e. volutes; impellers; and immediate pvc or acrylic surfaces. This type of crystalization can be removed with a vinegar bath provided you have pre-thought your access and ability to do so on an occasional/periodic schedule; and
- Once you start getting significant buildup in your lines (in my case 1/4" polyethylene return lines) the efficacy of the entire system slows noticeably. This is not due to flow restriction, as I still get similar effluent flow-thru. I believe it is somehow related to the excess precipitate residing within the lines. In my scenario the fix is as simple as spending $7 on a new role of 10' x 1/4" p.e. line.
Hopefully I can get back to a quick response this time round, but I hope this helps more than it confuses the perspective.
Regards,
Sheldon
Dustin1300
Reefaholic
Sheldon,
I appreciate the feedback and greatly appreciated. With that being said, I may rethink my strategy based on others and your feedback. I'll likely just go with some reaction chamber/tank that feeds to my overflow pipe which then feeds into a filter sock. Thanks for everyone's feedback and contribution on this thread/method.
I appreciate the feedback and greatly appreciated. With that being said, I may rethink my strategy based on others and your feedback. I'll likely just go with some reaction chamber/tank that feeds to my overflow pipe which then feeds into a filter sock. Thanks for everyone's feedback and contribution on this thread/method.
SPotter
Active member
I used it when I was curing my pukani rock. Its a very diluted product and would strongly suggest getting the SeaKlear. I thought the phosfree did the trick for me and now 10 months down the road my pukani rocks are leaching po4 like crazy.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
anything is possible!
Quite honestly, in your case (40 gallons) I wouldn't even bother with LaCl3. Run some GFO in a reactor and do regular big water changes with RO water.
SPotter
Active member
Im sure this has been asked and answered already and I apologize for being too lazy to go back and search for the answer but here it goes.....when dosing LaCl3, should I turn off my gfo reactor? I just did a gallon dose yesterday and came home today to find my gfo clumped up and almost like a brick.
Thank you in advance for the answer and I apologize for my laziness
Thank you in advance for the answer and I apologize for my laziness
Thought I would give you guys a quick; update over the holiday period I started doing with the LC, to start with my levels were over 1ppm on the D&D PO4 test kit :eek2: Well after 3-4 weeks I have now got this down to 0.16 and am seeing huge improvments on my SPS so thank you for all your help :beer:
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