LED's with respect to color of Sps corals

[Big E]

Exactly. We wrote about this in our first article, if you have not read it, I believe you will be interested to know http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/10/aafeature

Also I would like to emphasize - your corals and fishes may be healty and well colored, but you can see them in all its glory only if your fixture has a full spectrum and allows precise control of the spectra.

Thanks for your contributions to this thread......your recent article on your build is definitely a few steps ahead of most manufacturers out there.

I've been harping on most of what your articles have conveyed for 2 years yet most commercial fixtures out there right now don't address these issues.

 

[ReefLedLab]

Thanks for your contributions to this thread......your recent article on your build is definitely a few steps ahead of most manufacturers out there.

Thank you for high evaluation of our work!

I've been harping on most of what your articles have conveyed for 2 years yet most commercial fixtures out there right now don't address these issues.

Commercial fixtures primarily aimed on profit. But I sure, in near future will be fixtures, that will aimed on good result, because this niche of market is still empty.

 

[ReefLedLab]

over all the LEDlab clusters are one of the better out there right now, just very costly

It may look costly are untill we will don't compare quantity of radiation of this assembly to other LED solutions. Also, I think, LED protection devices is very important if we hope on long lifetime of whole fixture.

In all cases you may consider also a cheap version, not a flagship. Cheap 12up assemblies is have cheap price, but good enough parameters

Good info ReefLedLab, and much appreciated bringing an informed perspective to the USA hobby led forum discussions :beer:

Thank you. I hope, our indwelling on this forum will be useful

 

[TropTrea]

Commercial fixtures primarily aimed on profit. But I sure, in near future will be fixtures, that will aimed on good result, because this niche of market is still empty.

I'll disagree here as there are at least two extremely high quality manufacturers of LED fixtures today. However when your talking in the $2,000 range to light up a 75 to 120 gallon tank this is reducing the demand considerably.

However for the DIY individual today has a big advantage over the commercial fixtures. Most corporations are look at a lag time of at least a year from there first prototype to final production. Some companies I work with even have lag times of up to three years. From getting a final design to to point of getting all the UL and CSA approvals are often the biggest delays, as well as patient approvals. The Emitters themselves are improving at a very fast rate, while the DIY'er can be using LED's that were released in 2014 chances are the commercial manufacturers of fixtures are using LED's released prior to 2012.

 

[trueblackpercula]

hello everyone

I just came across this thread and thought it would be the perfect place to ask my question. I have a radion G1 fixture with TIR lens on a 12 hour schedule running at 65% 9" inches above the water line and my tank is 30 x 30 x 31 deep.

My sps colors are really not that good and some are either browned out and bleached while others are thriving. Can some one please tell me if I am giving too much light or not enough? I know there are many things that go into answering a question like this and don't want to take away from this great thread, (If you want to PM me please do) I guess what I am asking is can someone please show what are the affects of too much light vs not enough? It would be greatly appreciated at my end with this

Michael

 

[roberto_lopes]

Hi Michael

Well this is a dificult question because either too much or not enough have basically the same results.

So, how much time do you have the LEDs over your tank?

Have you ever measure the PAR readings ? I am asking this because at 80% and 10" over the water, my hydra52 is able to put over 800 PAR on top corals and approx 400 at the bottom. My tank is 26" deep.


I believe that 650 PAR is the ideal for top corals.

 

[ReefLedLab]

I'll disagree here as there are at least two extremely high quality manufacturers of LED fixtures today.

Who is it, in your opinion?

 

[trueblackpercula]

Hi Michael

Well this is a dificult question because either too much or not enough have basically the same results.
So, how much time do you have the LEDs over your tank?
Have you ever measure the PAR readings ? I am asking this because at 80% and 10" over the water, my hydra52 is able to put over 800 PAR on top corals and approx 400 at the bottom. My tank is 26" deep.
I believe that 650 PAR is the ideal for top corals.

I have had them over a year now running 12 hour days,no I have not measured PAR.

 

[Big E]

hello everyone

I just came across this thread and thought it would be the perfect place to ask my question. I have a radion G1 fixture with TIR lens on a 12 hour schedule running at 65% 9" inches above the water line and my tank is 30 x 30 x 31 deep.

My sps colors are really not that good and some are either browned out and bleached while others are thriving. Can some one please tell me if I am giving too much light or not enough? I know there are many things that go into answering a question like this and don't want to take away from this great thread, (If you want to PM me please do) I guess what I am asking is can someone please show what are the affects of too much light vs not enough? It would be greatly appreciated at my end with this

Michael

I've worked with a few people that have had Gen1 and 2. Your are suffering from more than one issue. Too much par below the discs(hotspots), missing spectrum, incorrect spectrum settings, and too long of a photoperiod. If you only have one unit you also don't have enough light to cover 30 x30.

Some things are workable with what you have and some you'll have to accept as limitations......... some won't change unless you supplement with T5's or more Leds.

I can work with you off line. There will be too much back and forth to do it on this thread. If you want, can you communicate what you're doing or make some summary posts as you go along.

 

[jestronix]

Wow what a read, thanks ed for linking this thread. if any reef light manufacturer was serious they would come in here and soak this info up.

A company that can show me a start to finish 3 year old tank running their led lights only, along with a number of experienced reefers , I'd be sold. I haven't really seen this although Lani comes close but there's still something missing. Growth , color rendition and efficiency is the ultimate goal. Ati giesemann and kz T5 mix is with a purple plus thrown in for me is where it's at , there's something about T5 that grabs me, maybe until I see a radium that is

 

[markalot]

I'm running Maxspect Razors with BML supplemental strips to attempt to spread the light a little more. The front BML strip mimics the Razor light balance (using the available LED's) except I used more of the Violet 420nm LED's.

http://www.bmlcustom.com/custom-report-details/?partNo=PS7275B201MLAKLFMKLAMKFML

It's not T5, and I'm not sure it is the best spectrum, but I have no choice now except to see how it does.

I'm running the Razors at 90% blue, 60% white along with this fixture on the front and one of the BML 20K fixtures along the back.

 

[Big E]

Wow what a read, thanks ed for linking this thread. if any reef light manufacturer was serious they would come in here and soak this info up.

A company that can show me a start to finish 3 year old tank running their led lights only, along with a number of experienced reefers , I'd be sold. I haven't really seen this although Lani comes close but there's still something missing. Growth , color rendition and efficiency is the ultimate goal. Ati giesemann and kz T5 mix is with a purple plus thrown in for me is where it's at , there's something about T5 that grabs me, maybe until I see a radium that is

I'm glad you have found the info useful it's objective, factual, & the only goal is to share information.

Trust me, I'm sure there are plenty of manufacturers that have read this & there have been some valuable contributions by some of them in this thread.

I copied pasted this from post#59 because it can really help as a general checklist. Be patient and wait for these units to prove themselves and when possible see them in person..........I can't reiterate that enough.------

Here is the criteria we looked at when evaluating LED lighting technology along with some general tips...

1) Make sure the light does not cast weird blue and yellow shadows under rocks and corals.

2) Look for a calming shimmer rather than the rapid flicker that is generated by some LEDs.

3) The light has to look natural, as if it was sunlight, not artificial, cold & clinical like some LEDs and T5.

4) Some emitters have a narrow spectrum and coral pigmentation is lacking in blue, purple and red, but green is vivid. Do a search and find other hobbyists who are using the light and see what their coral colour is like.

5) The CRI (colour rendering index) has to be high so fish and corals look natural and the sand is white, not blue.

6) Take a look at the spectrograph and see if it shows a lot of green & yellow light which is of little use to coral. This wavelength is put there so we recognize it as "bright" light for home and office applications. The green/yellow peak encourages nuisance algae and browns out corals with too much zooxanthellae. This peak lowers the PUR value.

7) The pegboard design creates hot spots and deficiencies with one green here and one red there (Lightbright) configurations. An all-in-one chip is homogenous and much more efficient.

8) Some manufacturers use tight 40˚ optics to fool quantum & LUX meters then use wider 70˚ optics on the outside to make it look like coverage is better (at the cost of intensity).

9) Some lights have a high percentage (often > 50/50) of blue LEDs which also give false high PAR readings.

10) Try to find a fixture that gives you the aesthetic you want for a reasonable price. Some feature heavy models are priced beyond reach and offer features that you may never utilize.

11) As with MHL, find a high kelvin white chip mixed with some blue and perhaps violet emitters for extra punch. A 7,000k LED is no better than using a 7,000k MHL bulb.

12) Pick a manufacturer who is developing new products and moving the technology forward, not just rebranding generic fixtures with standard industry components.

13) Take a look at who is using the product. Are they seasoned reefers with a lot at risk, or are they newbies who are trying products without doing thorough research and experimentation.

14) Review the pictures on the manufacturer's website. Often they are the owners tank and the coral colour is still weak.

15) Pick an adaptable technology where you can upgrade drivers and emitters, as the technology continues to grow, such as multichip LED.

 

[jestronix]

I'm glad you have found the info useful it's objective, factual, & the only goal is to share information.

Trust me, I'm sure there are plenty of manufacturers that have read this & there have been some valuable contributions by some of them in this thread.

I copied pasted this from post#59 because it can really help as a general checklist. Be patient and wait for these units to prove themselves and when possible see them in person..........I can't reiterate that enough.------

Here is the criteria we looked at when evaluating LED lighting technology along with some general tips...

1) Make sure the light does not cast weird blue and yellow shadows under rocks and corals.

2) Look for a calming shimmer rather than the rapid flicker that is generated by some LEDs.

3) The light has to look natural, as if it was sunlight, not artificial, cold & clinical like some LEDs and T5.

4) Some emitters have a narrow spectrum and coral pigmentation is lacking in blue, purple and red, but green is vivid. Do a search and find other hobbyists who are using the light and see what their coral colour is like.

5) The CRI (colour rendering index) has to be high so fish and corals look natural and the sand is white, not blue.

6) Take a look at the spectrograph and see if it shows a lot of green & yellow light which is of little use to coral. This wavelength is put there so we recognize it as "bright" light for home and office applications. The green/yellow peak encourages nuisance algae and browns out corals with too much zooxanthellae. This peak lowers the PUR value.

7) The pegboard design creates hot spots and deficiencies with one green here and one red there (Lightbright) configurations. An all-in-one chip is homogenous and much more efficient.

8) Some manufacturers use tight 40˚ optics to fool quantum & LUX meters then use wider 70˚ optics on the outside to make it look like coverage is better (at the cost of intensity).

9) Some lights have a high percentage (often > 50/50) of blue LEDs which also give false high PAR readings.

10) Try to find a fixture that gives you the aesthetic you want for a reasonable price. Some feature heavy models are priced beyond reach and offer features that you may never utilize.

11) As with MHL, find a high kelvin white chip mixed with some blue and perhaps violet emitters for extra punch. A 7,000k LED is no better than using a 7,000k MHL bulb.

12) Pick a manufacturer who is developing new products and moving the technology forward, not just rebranding generic fixtures with standard industry components.

13) Take a look at who is using the product. Are they seasoned reefers with a lot at risk, or are they newbies who are trying products without doing thorough research and experimentation.

14) Review the pictures on the manufacturer's website. Often they are the owners tank and the coral colour is still weak.

15) Pick an adaptable technology where you can upgrade drivers and emitters, as the technology continues to grow, such as multichip LED.

This is all dead on the money, talking about reefers with a lot to risk, I understand david Saxby has gone led ? We are talking $500k at least in risk? Not sure if he is still supplementing T5 though. I haven't come across any recent updates on his tank.

I have built various diy led configuration for about 5 years starting off back with the Cree XRE in blue and white only configurations but always tuning to what my eye liked rather than what corals are after. I d had fun doing it and would probably be bored now if I just went a good halide T5 setup. Some people often post about light having little to do with this hobby, it's more about chemistry etc , as time goes on I'm leaning more towards light playing a bigger role, good stability, flow and parameters are the foundations, but the life giving rays of the sun are in my eyes are the key to a thriving reef tank.

I want a mini sun and about 15 feet of seawater above my tank, this might do the trick. Maybe a plasma could do this

 

[trueblackpercula]

I've worked with a few people that have had Gen1 and 2. Your are suffering from more than one issue. Too much par below the discs(hotspots), missing spectrum, incorrect spectrum settings, and too long of a photoperiod. If you only have one unit you also don't have enough light to cover 30 x30.

Some things are workable with what you have and some you'll have to accept as limitations......... some won't change unless you supplement with T5's or more Leds.

I can work with you off line. There will be too much back and forth to do it on this thread. If you want, can you communicate what you're doing or make some summary posts as you go along.

Thanks for all the help, I did take what you gave me and translated that into I need a new LED fixture LOL So i picked up a Mitras lx 6100 HV boy what a difference in spectrum and color verse the Radion. Well to be honest there is no comparison at all.

But with this come a whole new set of questions that I am trying to learn.
1) Is it true that sps need more light from just 425nm through 475nm range for color? And if so how many hours a day is too much?
2) Now this one is really got me stumped, how much day light do sps need a day to grow and what should the spectrum look like?

So I have right now incorporated my lights to cover mostly the bluer spectrum throughout the day. But I also do have from 4 to 5 all LEDS on at 70 % Intensity with the overall output of the fixture set to 70% as well. I guess what I am asking is what should the kelvin be at or if there is a spectral plot for daylight I can copy from or mimic please let me know.


Michael
Here is a link to my tank lighting project and sps >>>> http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2440445

 

[ol'reefer]

Love the AI Hydra 52. Great balance of light output and color. But they do run warm...

 

[Big E]

"œIs it true that sps need more light from just 425nm through 475nm range for color?"

Use this chart and it gives you a good idea what pigments need. The range is much wider than 425-475.

Pigment chart by Big E 52, on Flickr

"œAnd if so how many hours a day is too much?"

You have to be careful with too much intensity. Stay between 200 near the bottom and 450 at the top. In that range you should be okay for 7-8 hours a day.

Your fixture has about a 24x24 coverage foot print according to Sanjay. Use his coverage graph for placement. Also use his review to get more familiar with your unit.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/8/review

Acros sweet spot-- 300-350
Millies like more par, smooth skin acros 200-250

If you use a par meter, don't concern yourself with the 10% or so error readings "¦"¦"¦corals don't care. They won't show different shades (Pastel/dark) due to intensity till you're at around 50 difference, so you can use increments of 50+/- to judge things.

"œwhat should the spectrum look like?"

Use the Radium 400w halide spectrum chart as your guide. I posted the spectral chart on page one of this thread. Also keep in mind that most people would also use VHO actinics as supplements for that extra 420 pop which isn't in that chart.

Your unit is a bit light on the 400-420 range and also a reason why some people that use LEDs supplement with T5. I would say for now just see where you're at with the current changes and decide that later if needed.

Set your unit to one spectrum and stick to it"¦"¦.don't change all those spectrums during the day. Think of the halides"¦"¦..they were the same all day, we didn't fudge spectrums during the day. If you want you can do a day/evening the first and last hour, but that's it.

If you want to dim over time you can but if your unit is incapable of keeping the spectrum the same and dimming don't do it. With the par levels and spectrum I suggested you should be fine for 7-8 hours. Maybe even start at 5 and work your way up to 7-8 hours.

Coverage---

Be aware that no matter what you do your coverage isn't going to be the same as a halide or T5. The only way to fix that is use T5 or more LED units.

led coverage vs halide by Big E 52, on Flickr

Hold your unit about a foot from the wall or a table top and see where the hot spots are if any. With your Radion it would obvious, I'm not sure with your Mitras. Make a mental picture of that and make sure you setup your aquascape to manage a more consistent par across your tank.

led landscape by Big E 52, on Flickr

Keep the reds turned way down on your Mitras"¦"¦they have way too much red in them

They also have around the same White to blue type ratio (# of diodes in the unit) as your Radion"¦"¦.too many whites. I prefer to see closer to a 3-1 ratio. You can manage around this by running your whites at about 20% of your blue settings. You'll probably have to do this anyways to match the 400w radium chart.

One other thing to remember is that no matter what you do you're still basically working with the same diodes as the Radion. Cree diodes, ect. Just be aware of that and don't expect big differences.

It looks like the Mitras has the coverage/hot spot issue much more under contral than the Radion so that's where it's going to help the most"¦"¦..coverage and par consistency.

Most importantly is use the corals as your guide and go slow"¦"¦"¦.it takes at least 4-6 weeks for color changes to really show up. Be patient and logical"¦"¦"¦try to keep other variables consistent while you're working to tweek your settings. I'm speaking in terms of nutrients and maintenance more than anything.

Hope this helps........keep us posted in your thread.

 

[markalot]

I'm running Maxspect Razors with BML supplemental strips to attempt to spread the light a little more. The front BML strip mimics the Razor light balance (using the available LED's) except I used more of the Violet 420nm LED's.

http://www.bmlcustom.com/custom-report-details/?partNo=PS7275B201MLAKLFMKLAMKFML

It's not T5, and I'm not sure it is the best spectrum, but I have no choice now except to see how it does.

I'm running the Razors at 90% blue, 60% white along with this fixture on the front and one of the BML 20K fixtures along the back.

Quoting myself here. I went back to T5's with the BML strip to add some shimmer. Cheapest option for me to get better light spread since 2 more BML strips would have been a lot more than a 60" T5 fixture.

I think I'm saying the same thing that's been said here before but here goes again.

I would still encourage people who want to go LED to look at the LED strip light option, like those from BML. I really think the fixtures with just one or two pucks of LED's are not the solution and either strip lights or lower power fixtures with numerous pucks to spread the coverage are the answer.

Here is a horrible sketch for some Monday morning humor.

My ideal LED fixture with pucks spans the entire width of the tank. I drew strip lights on the right, not sure why, you can ignore those. :bigeyes:

The Radion is only 12 inches long, so IMO you would need 2 front to back for the 24" tank and 1 full and one single puck for the 18". Of course this would be prohibitively expensive. The AI fixture has more pucks but is still only 12 inches long.

This is one reason I think a wall of cheap Chinese LED fixtures above a tank might actually give the best results as long as the spectrum can come close to ideal (whatever that is).

I took this topdown when I was running my Maxspect Razors over my tank. This coral was brown and colored up nicely under the razors, but it looked NOTHING like this from the front and was the primary reason I decided to switch lights.

If you had a person standing on the stage with a spotlight overhead it wouldn't look very good either since all the light is coming from the top. You would need some directional lighting from the front angled back to evenly light the actor.

Ok, I've said my piece and I feel better. :deadhorse1:

 

[Spyderturbo007]

Just to throw out my experience, I hate my LEDs and will be removing them from my tank in the next few days when I have a little time to get the T5s back out. I've given them as much of a chance as I can and have lost a lot of coral since their introduction.

I initially started with them at the power level suggested by the manufacturer. Within a few days I was pulling out dead coral that dropped its flesh almost immediately. The power was just way too high. The coral that didn't die, turned brown and lost all PE.

I've tried everything with these stupid things. Raising them, lowering them, increasing power, decreasing power, dropping the red / amber, blah, blah. Following each change, I gave the tank a few weeks to see if there was a difference. Nothing helped. Coral that was introduced as test pieces along the way quickly lost all color and most died. All other aspects of husbandry have been checked, double check and triple checked. All parameters were verified at my work via ICP-OES (Inductively Coupled Plasma Optical Emission Spectroscopy). I also purchased redundant test kits and verified all tests with Certified Reference Materials from my lab. Believe me, I've ruled everything out.

What a waste of money. Anyone want to buy a Pacific Sun Hyperion S.

 

[cambo123]

Having dumped way to much money into trying LED's, T5's, and a mix of the two...I can safely say that I can tell absolutely no difference between each one. I am fairly confident, that the loss of pigmentation I have battled has everything to do with an overpowered filtration system coupled with an understocked (fish) tank. IE, water quality.

Why?, Several weeks ago I experimented with HEAVY feeding of my 3 fish and all coral. Colors were doing great and really coming out until my heater exploded in the sump and bleached away the color I had gained. Likewise, the heavy feeding led to a relatively large algae bloom. It has been a couple weeks and I have been trying a more conservative...yet still aggressive feeding regiment in conjunction with a much more aggressive clean up crew. Crossing my fingers.

The reality is, a lot of these LED lit tanks are small....ie less than 100 gallons. Even more are less than 50 gallons. Mine...a 34 gallon. Getting small tanks balanced with a proper nutrient intake and export is HARD. It is really easy to load up a 34 gallon tank with a big skimmer, carbon, GFO, filter sock etc etc and end up with nothing in the water for the corals. Likewise, getting a heavily stocked tank (with fish) is difficult because there are nasty tradeoffs between aggression, size, and territory. Low nutrients leads to BAD colors.

What changed my view on this was a recent venture to purchase SPS frags. I saw several tanks and got frags lit from, LED, T5, MH, and T5-LED hybrid. Color was amazing in each case and eventually faded under my T5/LED hybrid with ATI bulbs. What was the common denominator for each of these tanks; nutrients (off the charts compared to mine), heavily stocked, large water volume.

Long story short, I feel that lighting is important but it is easy to look over food sources for your corals and water quality and blame the LED's

Just my 2 cents

 

[Big E]

Please keep this thread focused on the technical aspects of LEDs on coloring acros. It's not a debate or experience thread.

I gave percula some suggestions for his new fixture.......... that's all.........only because he asked and his questions are about par,coverage, ect. which fits the thread.

It' NOT about nutrient control.

Read before posting and get a feel for the thread........it's loaded with info on lighting for acros, coral pigment needs, and evaluating the technical aspects of LEDs.