Serious Disscussion of Zoanthids Growth

All of my answer's are based on my experience over the last 2+ years

1: Which is the best way to Make Zooanthids Spread Rapidly (Fastest)?
By fragging


2: IS it True that Placing them High up nearning to the MH will promote fast growth as well as spreading?
Somewhat, putting them higher in the light also makes the zoanthids "shorten" their stalks (for some zoanthids), (this is how you tell if they are getting enough light, too little light or the right amount of light), depends on the type or zoa, they are all different), lower in the light lets them sort of reach for the light making them fuller, more rounded, rather than looking flat for colonies or frags

3: Does Feeding Zooanthids PROOVE accelerates Growth?
Don't know what PROOVE is, but lets just do feeding in general, I used to feed my corals, but I have gotten lazy lately (for the past 4 months) and have not fed them (by feeding I mean, marine snow or something simular) I have noticed more growth when not feeding.

4: Does Fragging helps to speeds up the growth rate?
Yes, for me newly fragged zoa's tend to exploded in growth after fragging, my fastest growing zoa's (kedd redds) have on average 20 new polyps per month, if I didn't frag I might get about 5-10 polyps per month (you can also frag up a small colonie say 30 polyps on a small plug or rock and mount them to a way larger rock and space out the clippings (of about 3 polyps each) about a half inch to an inch in any direction on the rock (10 times (30 polyps divided by 3 equals ten clippings)) and let it grow into a massive colony in no time.

5: Is it proven that Mild Current do help acclerate the growth over Weaker Current?
I have zoa's all over the tank (colonies + Frags) in high, low, and medium flow spots, and they all do well, nothing seems to be better, on the other hand zoa's in high to moderate flow areas, zoa's of the same color/type, have longer tentacles than the ones in low flow spots

6:What Other Conditions will help Quicken The growth rate of the Zooanthis.at a fast speed..
In my experience, placing different types of zoa's (color wise) next to each other (about 1/2" or less appart) on the same rock or frag plug will usually increase the growth rates. they sort of try to out do each other.
 
feeding
in my experience, some zoas 'react' to food, some 'eat' food (mostly palys), and others don't seem to even know i'm squirting them w/ food.

i'm not convinced that any of my zoas eat, but i am very convinced that some of my palys do.

exponential growth
another note, and it may seem obvious once stated, is that zoanthid growth is exponential. i.e. if you start w/ 2 polyps and grow a 3rd in 7 weeks, then you can carry that same logic out (roughly) to where if you had 20 polyps, you'd get roughly 10 more in the same time period.

furthermore, it seems to be at a greater exponential rate than just a simple multiplier factor. i.e. it seems to be more than just 1.5x the polyp count every y time period. i'm not gonna go try and find a differential equation to describe their growth, but it seems to be that you might get 1.5x the first y period, then 1.55x the second y period, then 1.6x the third y period, etc. until it levels off at some growth rate number.

i've noticed this to be pretty consistent while watching them grow. there are other factors, i.e. surface area adjacent to potential growth areas vs. the highly populated center of a colony, but you get the idea. :D (for the math and engineering peeps out there: assume the horse is a sphere! LOL)

so unfortunately, that logic lends itself to 'not fragging'. blasphemy! heehee!

so what do you do? frag or grow?

well, here's my game plan. not saying it's right or wrong, just what i do! :) if i've got a new colony or frag, after about 3 weeks of it being in my tank (to allow it to recoup from transport/fragging/new-tank-syndrome), i'll frag it and get it out to a couple of my key local trading buddies for backups. (they extend the same courtesy to me - a symbiotic relationship, ha ha!) then i'll let them grow to the unjustifiable number of 30 polyps. 30 polyps just seems like an aesthetically pleasing number of polyps to me when looking at zoas in my tank. it doesn't look like a 'frag' still, but not a colony either. once i'm at 30, i'll start fragging here and there for people as requested while 'slowly' letting my mother colony's numbers grow as well. remember - once yer at 30 polyps, yer growth is going to be much 'quicker' - or at least a higher quantity of polyps, not necessarily quicker.

so let's play out a year's worth of growth. numerically and chronologically, it would look something like:
  • day 1 - new frag of 6 polyps comes in. DIP IT!! heh
  • day 21 - (3 weeks since i've had them) perhaps 1 new polyp, frag it into 1 x 2 polyp and 1 x 5 polyp frags. get one in another tank!!!
  • day 70 - at ~ 8 polyps
  • day 119 - at ~ 13 polyps
  • day 168 - at ~21 polyps
  • day 217 - at ~32 polyps - frag a 5 polyp frag for someone, down to 27 polyps
  • day 266 - at ~ 40-42 polyps (depending how the colony reacted to the fragging) - frag a 5 polyp frag for someone, down to ~36 polyps
  • day 315 - at ~ 55 polyps - the surface area at which the zoas can spread out is large, but no 'center' growth as there's nowhere for the center polyps to grow! frag 2 x 5 polyp frags, down to 45 polyps
  • day 364 - at ~ 62 polyps, same growth restraints, frag 2 x 5 polyp frags, down to 52

so in ~ 3/4 year, i'm ready for fragging. after 1 years time, my mother colony is at ~52 polyps, and i've made a total of 7 frags. and after this mark, i'm making 2 frags per month and soon 3 polyp frags per month.

also - you noticed that i made mention of no 'center' growth as it's crowded out. this lends to more advanced fragging techniques involving fragging the middle of your colony and not just the edges. why? well, if you make frags in the middle of your colony, then the middle zoas have a place to grow too. thus, yer getting border growth and middle growth. it is a lot more work to frag in this manner though...

thoughts?

62 polyps in a year? If ive read correctly, if done right couldnt you have probably 2-300 polyps in a year doing small single polyp frags?
 
I joined to revive this topic after many moons of simply lurking thru forums. I just simply learn much more from reading others inputs and gathering through my own experiences. <--- Enough about me.

After tons of research and extraction of everyone's inputs into this discussion over the last several years, as well as other forums I lurk, there is still the one major question that eludes my knowlege base. It will follow my tidbits of info below.

I keep both Paly's and Zoa's although they are similar, I have always been able to tell the difference in them simply to reaction of spot feeding. (I only have 6 diff Paly colonies and 22 Zoa colonies to base this on.) The Paly's always respond to meaty and protien based foods rapidly. The Zoas respond to nothing I try. I know this Thread was based on Growth factors, We have all figured out lighting and current are "What We Know About" that work. But most living creatures all eat something, I cannot believe that Zoas respond to nothing. <--- (meening a physical response like seen in Paly's)

So my Question is,
Does anyone use a product Commercial or Homegrown that Zoas respond too?

Dewey115 posed an interesting idea on page three of this thread on 02/12/2006, 02:28 PM with his info/idea regarding dynoflaggellates.

I have gained and confirmed much knowlege from here and other foorums. I appreciate everyone's patience with my rambling. I'm hoping someone has an input that will help us all.

Tom
 
Welcome aboard DB. Please stick around as I truly enjoy these types of questions and discussions.

Personally speaking, I feel that just because zoas, which feed on zooplankton, do not exhibit a prey/capture response, as is the case with palythoas when meaty external foods are introduced, that doesn't mean they aren't feeding. I have turned my actinics on after 5 hours of total and complete darkness, and 1/3 of my zoas were open. My question is, why? When irritated/physically disturbed, they will retract, but this is a natural response. So the question is still the same. What foods will cause them to react as palys do? To that question I would say this. They have this multipurpose oral slit that according to Eric Bornemen, ( aquarist, researcher and author) is used to "assist with both feeding and water exchange". If this is true, and he knows far more than you and I both, then zoas will and do actively feed in my opinion, just not in the same manner as palythoas. I believe and agree with E.B., that zoas feed continuously, we simple don't see them doing so via a response. I mean, why would they be fully expanded in complete darkness? If that makes any since. You aren't going to necessarily see the zooplankton they feed on, so they could theoretically feed without our physically seeing it.

The oral slit allows food to enter and pass through the Siphonoglyph ( mouth ), which then passes through their stomach. Hmm, they have a stomach? Zoanthids also have a gastrovascular pouch/cavity below this oral slit and Siphonoglyph. This Gastrovascular pouch/cavity, has a dual function of both digestion and nutrient distribution. So they have an oral slit by which food enters. See the definition of Gastrovascular Cavity in the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastrovascular_cavity



This definition speaks also of Cnidaria. See link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoantharia



An oral slit, a Siphonoglyph, which leads to a gastrovascular cavity ( stomach ) which digest and distributes food, which E. Borneman says, they feed continuously, with and oral slit which has a dual role for nutrient intake as well as an orifice for waste, I'd say searching for a food which will cause a prey/capture response in zoas, just might be a waste of time. Not trying to sound smart mouth or anything and I hope I didn't come off that way.

As you stated, good lighting, good current, a couple of weekly addition of zooplankton and fish poop, and you're good to go. Of course other factors, such as tank maturity, parameters and proper husbandry etc. are also vital.


I hope this makes sense and I didn't just talk myself into a circle.



Mucho Reef



PS. Also some good reading in the link below

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1880631&highlight=gastrovascular
 
I feel that the higher the light and the flow creates a healthy reproduction rate. Like zoas that supposedly reproduce 1 polyp a month;(PPE), i have been able to increase to about 2 polyps per month; with nightly feedings, @ about 14" under 800Watts of light. (mixed compact & DE MH)
 
I feel that the higher the light and the flow creates a healthy reproduction rate. Like zoas that supposedly reproduce 1 polyp a month;(PPE), i have been able to increase to about 2 polyps per month; with nightly feedings, @ about 14" under 800Watts of light. (mixed compact & DE MH)


I can't say that I agree with the lighting portion of that. Many zoas will actually retract and refuse to expand under intense lighting. Some will even perish if the retractionis prolonged. Thus I can't see how "the higher the light" reply can be completely true.

No two systems are alike, so there is no gurantee that polyp production in one system will yield the same results in another system or each month in any system. Tank conditions/parameters are the sole determining factor yielding growth in any system.

Just my 2.


Mucho Reef
 
I feel that the higher the light and the flow creates a healthy reproduction rate. Like zoas that supposedly reproduce 1 polyp a month;(PPE), i have been able to increase to about 2 polyps per month; with nightly feedings, @ about 14" under 800Watts of light. (mixed compact & DE MH)

I would like to hear more.

What are your water params?

What are you feeding?

What is the break down of your lights, MH to PC?

How much flow and location under the lights?

I've seen zoo's in the ocean that were either sometimes out of water or only 1 to 2 inches under the surface. They look like they reproduce like mad. But then there are zoo's found in area's they get way less light and reproduce like mad.
 
If using t5 and they approx 20" deep what would be ideal lighting for a large majority of zoas/palys for both color and growth assuming we use a 50/50 blend of 10 000k and
20 000k

4 or 6 bulbs as a rough estimate?
 
Think this needs a bump for those who are interested in how to make their polyps grow faster.

A recent thread I read got me to thinking about flow again, and I remembered some articles I had read awhile back on how flow is actually more important to your corals than light. I had to do a little digging, but came up with the article;

Feature Article: Water flow is more important for corals than light. Part 1. Introduction to Gas Exchange | Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine

This is the first article in a series of 4;

#2 Feature Article: Water flow is more important for corals than light. Part II: The science of corals and water flow | Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine

#3 Feature Article: Water flow is more important for corals, Part III | Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine

and #4 Feature Article: Water Flow is More Important for Corals Than Light Part 4: Basics of Hydrodynamics | Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine

Which in turn lead me to the question of what is the ideal flow for a zoanthid dominated tank? Total volume of flow? Turn over rate? and Type of flow?

(sorry if these were referenced earlier, haven't take the time to read the whole thread yet) Thoughts or input?
 
My 2 tanks are mixed reef with a leaning towards SPS so we have always had high flow. In a 30g tank I have an mp10 full blast and 2 mj1200 that I used to power the HOB fuge and HOB skimmer. The 45 gallon has an mp20 full blast with 3 mj1200 powering various HOB things. 30g has 250 MH and 45 has 5xT5 as far as lighting goes.

I have, what I consider, good growth in both tanks and the zoas that are on the frag racks are getting blasted with flow. I have one rack directly across from the vortechs in each tank and one that gets the rebound flow in each tank. I start my zoas up there and let them grow out a bit before I epoxy them into the rock work.

Having the muliple frag racks in the tanks allows me to play with the placement with flow. Most zoas to just fine in the high flow, but I noticed my red hornets do not like the high flow and closed up until I moved them.

The only "control" tank I have is my 12g JBJ tank which only has the stock return pump for flow. Zoas do ok in there, not as well as my other tanks but there are a TON of other factors in there so it is not really a reliable comparison (lighting, feeding, supplements, etc.).
 
My 2 tanks are mixed reef with a leaning towards SPS so we have always had high flow. In a 30g tank I have an mp10 full blast and 2 mj1200 that I used to power the HOB fuge and HOB skimmer. The 45 gallon has an mp20 full blast with 3 mj1200 powering various HOB things. 30g has 250 MH and 45 has 5xT5 as far as lighting goes.

I have, what I consider, good growth in both tanks and the zoas that are on the frag racks are getting blasted with flow. I have one rack directly across from the vortechs in each tank and one that gets the rebound flow in each tank. I start my zoas up there and let them grow out a bit before I epoxy them into the rock work.

Having the muliple frag racks in the tanks allows me to play with the placement with flow. Most zoas to just fine in the high flow, but I noticed my red hornets do not like the high flow and closed up until I moved them.

The only "control" tank I have is my 12g JBJ tank which only has the stock return pump for flow. Zoas do ok in there, not as well as my other tanks but there are a TON of other factors in there so it is not really a reliable comparison (lighting, feeding, supplements, etc.).


Thanks for the reply MnN, seems like there is good support for better growth with the vortechs - are you running yours with a linear pattern or a random pattern of flow?
 
My vortechs are both set on reef crest.

I think flow is a very important part of the equation, but I also think feeding is important too. I read the most recent coral magazine (the one with the mantis shirmp on the cover) and there was a great article titled "Is your reef anorexic?". It talk about feeding your reef many different types of food (phyto and smaller particle stuff) which I have been doing since the beginning. I recommend finding that article, it is a good read.
 
My vortechs are both set on reef crest.

I think flow is a very important part of the equation, but I also think feeding is important too. I read the most recent coral magazine (the one with the mantis shirmp on the cover) and there was a great article titled "Is your reef anorexic?". It talk about feeding your reef many different types of food (phyto and smaller particle stuff) which I have been doing since the beginning. I recommend finding that article, it is a good read.

Thanks MnN, I saw that article as well. It was indeed a good educational read.

So, random flow patterns - anybody else have any observations to support that?

An earlier question that was also addressed in this thread, but not answered was the tie between alkalinity levels and zoa growth. Is there one?
 
This has been a great thread, but was started long enough ago one question has not been addressed in terms of polyp growth. Has anyone that has switched to LED lighting (from halides) noticed a positive or negative impact in zoa growth?
 
I have been conducting an experiment in this area for the past 4 months. I have always tried to break things down into the question of "what can i expect from doing this?"

A short description of the objective of my experiment is to find out several main factors of zoa/paly frag and colony growth. I really tried to capture every possible variable when documenting this experiment, although some things are impossible to keep as control variables. A detailed listing of my progress is as follows.

I purchased about 6 different no-brand-name zoa / paly frags from my LFS about 4 months ago.

Each frag was about 20 polyps for the zoas, and about 8 polyps for the palys.

I dont want to copy the entire experiment report thus far into this forum (unless you want me to) so I will summarize the details. This is all summarized in a Microsoft Excel document.

  • I took the tank parameters every night for the past 4 months.
  • I did weekly water changes of 17 gallons NSW and roughly 3 gallons top off of RODI.
  • The photo-period for this duration was 8 am 2 blue bulbs on, 10 am pink and purple come on, 5 pm pink and purple off, 9 pm blues off.
  • The fish were fed 3 times daily, Reef Cavier in morning, NLS 1mm pellets midday, Reef Mix evening.
  • The coral were spot fed twice per week, Wednesday and Sunday 1 hour before lights out, they were fed a mix of phytoplankton and cyclopeez.

Every Saturday I would inspect each frag individually, without touching in to get a polyp count.

I tried to place the frags in pairs in different areas of the tank, high flow, low flow, low light.

Z1 = Zoa frag #1
P1 = Paly frag #1

A short summary of my observations are

Z1 - green/yellow , Z2 - yellow/blue - low light, low flow
Z1 grew from 21 polyps to 35 polyps
Z2 grey from 17 polyps to 30 polyps


Z3 - red/yellow, Z4 - green - medium light, medium flow
Z3 - grew from 12 polyps to 25 polyps
Z4 - grew from 31 polyps to 65 polyps


P1 - green/blue, P2 - red/green - medium light, high flow
P1 - grew from 11 polyps to 18 polyps
P2 - grew from 14 polyps to 17 polyps

This was the extent of my experiment because my lights ended up dying and I upgraded to LEDs.

I now have a new experiment going with high end Zoa / Palys
This experiment has been running for 1 week, and i intend to do the same thing with all of them for the next 6 months.


This was my experience, I am not sure that I can officially draw any conclusions from this, as they were not the same species/color in different regions to compare although it appears that my tank showed the best results when placed in a medium light medium flow area. The new experiment will try to address how different placement of high-end Z's and P's affects the growth (and coloration) of these corals.
 
That's great SD Actuary. Very interesting read, would love to hear more when you have the time to share. It's the kind of stuff I like to hear, read and discuss. Much respect for taking the time out to do this my friend.

If you don't mind, could you share your parameters with us? It would go a long way in helping others who might want a bit of help with their polyps? Hey thanks again for taking the time to do this and sharing it.

Mucho Reef
 
Average Parameters over 4 month period:

The ~ indicate a guesstimate since the titration tests seem to really be based on my opinion of when the color has officially changed.

Temperature - 76.1
Nitrate ~ 2.7 ppm
Nitrite ~ 0.0 ppm
Calcium ~ 445.2
pH - 8.13
Specific Gravity - 1.023


I dose'd 2 cap fulls of Reef Solution every morning
Ran Seachem MatrixCarbon and PhosGuard which was changed weekly
I have a very very heavily stocked refugium which I added ORA copepods to twice per month (I am a firm believer that copepods play a large role in removing execss nitrate and algae from the tank)

That is all the documented parameters that I have.

So far so good on the "expensive" experiment, I have multiple frags of the same polyp to show the differences between the two placements.

Thanks for reading!

Love to hear other people's results and observations on their Z's and P's
 
Average Parameters over 4 month period:

The ~ indicate a guesstimate since the titration tests seem to really be based on my opinion of when the color has officially changed.

Temperature - 76.1
Nitrate ~ 2.7 ppm
Nitrite ~ 0.0 ppm
Calcium ~ 445.2
pH - 8.13
Specific Gravity - 1.023


I dose'd 2 cap fulls of Reef Solution every morning
Ran Seachem MatrixCarbon and PhosGuard which was changed weekly
I have a very very heavily stocked refugium which I added ORA copepods to twice per month (I am a firm believer that copepods play a large role in removing execss nitrate and algae from the tank)

That is all the documented parameters that I have.

So far so good on the "expensive" experiment, I have multiple frags of the same polyp to show the differences between the two placements.

Thanks for reading!

Love to hear other people's results and observations on their Z's and P's



Great, thanks.


Could you share your opinions on how you arrived at "Temperature - 76.1 and
Specific Gravity - 1.023" ? I'm not debating it, just want to know if you have experienced a different growth rate at a slightly higher reading of both.


What type of lighting did you utilize before the upgrade?

What size was your tank and how mature was the system?

Was there a heavy Bio-load, and what type of fish do you have in this system?

Thanks again for sharing this SD.


Mucho Reef
 
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Zoas!!!!!!!!!!!!!Got to Love um..

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Zoas!!!!!!!!!!!!!Got to Love um..

I have three different types of zoas on the same rock and the less colorful ones are growing 3-4 times faster because they are attached to the edge and top of the rock that recieves the best water flow and and most abundant food supply. Now that I know this I will place them differently next time... Hope this helps Happy Reefing!!!:smokin:
 
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