Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[uncleof6]

I'm confused. Skimmers suck air all the time (maybe that's inaccurate, but they are open channels too), it's kinda by default since they're open channels of water. If the input of water into the skimmer does not exceed the channel's ability to take that water in then how is it not behaving like an overflow channel?

This is where part of my nay saying comes from. The slit pipe is a low flow device, from the word go. There are more efficient and far less limited solutions, making this obsolete-- and why we don't ALL use it, in contrast to its relegation to the trash pile-- along with the "pretzel" over flow. Not very scientific, (science of it takes too much time,) but common sense.

Have you taken this premise and attempted to adapt it to running a BeanAnimal style set of pipes? I'm not saying that you're wrong (and you admit that you don't know if it would work), but there seems to be a lot of off-handed neigh saying about this system's ability to handle water flow (from the other thread). I'm also not saying that I'm right, since I have no idea if it really will work also. I am however willing to experiment and see if it can work. And I think it can with a little (or a lot) of tweaking/modification. And the tweak I've made to make it at least look like a BA is to introduce a "trap" which could/would simulate the pipe being completely submerged all the time so long as the water level never drops below the bottom of the "U".

It is not offhanded nay saying. It comes from experience with the slit pipe configuration.

From what I understand of the BA system. There are 3 drains involved. 2 which are effectively siphon/durso pipes and an emergency overflow in the event that the two primary drains fail. Of the two down-turned pipes, one is adjusted to maintain a water level high enough to prevent air from being introduced into that siphon's piping. The other down-turned pipe is a low-flow wide open piping scheme which handles the excess flow which is generated by tuning the full siphon to maintain the aforementioned water level.

SO! I hypothesize, based on this information, that it is possible to utilize a BA method on the above illustrated system IF it is possible for two things to happen.

1) Water level can be maintained at an arbitrary level high enough to keep the bottom of the Skimmer pipe wet with 1/16" of water. This is just a number, could be any number as long as the water level in the initial overflow piping is high enough that water can flow freely to either side to drain.

2) The skimmer pipe does not become completely submerged in water.

The solution to the skimmer pipe getting submerged is a simple matter of either opening the ball valve wider to allow more flow OR making the groove/notch in the skimmer pipe wider which will provide more room for water to fall in without meeting itself in the middle. The latter solution will only work to a point where the pipe is cut in half at which point bigger pipe will be needed to get more surface area to work with.

Based on what I've said, does this at least sound like a logical/reasonable conclusion to arrive at given the two conditions which need to be met and is my understanding on how the BA system works accurate?

Well, the system works as designed-- if implemented as designed. Reconfiguring it with a slit pipe contraption, your results will/may vary.

I can't think of a good enough reason to try it, so I won't be implementing the "split pipe" to test it.

Bean says it nicer: (just a couple posts above) "Best practices are as designed with few exceptions"

To save myself a lot of wasted time, if you believe you can build a cheaper/more complex/better mousetrap, by all means go for it. Let us know how it turns out for you.

Regards,

Jim

 

[rsuplido]

Go back a few pages in this thread. Bean posted a chart that states those exact figures. Based on a drop of 12". You drop will undoubtedly be greater than that figure, so expect the numbers to be larger.

Jim

Ok, found it. Here's the calculator: http://www.beananimal.com/articles/hydraulics-for-the-aquarist.aspx

Thanks.

 

[rayn]

The emergency does not need to be underwater for the system to start. The only thing that affects the starting is the depth of the siphon in the sump. If your system has been starting without issues, then all of a sudden this time it did not, what did you bump, readjust, or change? System will not change all on its own, just because it was shut down. If the emergency is now above water level, and it was below water level before, the lowering of the water level would have a tendency to make the system start easier. Check for the depth of the siphon in the sump <=1", and for air leaks in the siphon standpipe/line.

Jim

Nothing changed or was bumped that I'm aware of. Ill find out next Sunday when I do another water change unless I do a power outage. Main drain and secondary are always under water, by atleast four inches. Not sure, ill do some looking.

 

[nctinter]

Can this be used with a filter sock or multiple filter socks? Sorry if this has been asked and answered already.

 

[scott26]

Can this be used with a filter sock or multiple filter socks? Sorry if this has been asked and answered already.

Why wouldn't it? I plan to some say they don't like to use them because they need to be cleaned so often.

 

[VFX_Bishop]

Well the biggest reason for not using a c2c is that the tank itself doesn't have an overflow in it and I'm unable and unwilling to install a c2c which I won't have access to externally nor can I put a hole in the top of the tank.

This is necessitating the creative plumbing, my alternative would be to utilize a Herbie style system with some slightly less creative plumbing using a wider diameter pipe as the overflow.

 

[uncleof6]

Nothing changed or was bumped that I'm aware of. Ill find out next Sunday when I do another water change unless I do a power outage. Main drain and secondary are always under water, by atleast four inches. Not sure, ill do some looking.

Hmmmm, If i understand this correctly, your siphon and and open channel outlets terminate 4" below water level in the sump?

"All (3) standpipes extend into the sump and terminate just below the water level." BeanAnimal

'Check for the depth of the siphon in the sump <=1" '

Although it is not critical that ANY of the standpipes be submerged in the sump, to facilitate starting, the depth at which they are submerged will affect the starting characteristics. The deeper they terminate, the longer it will take to purge the air from the siphon line. In some cases there won't be enough head pressure to completely purge the air, and the siphon will not start.

Why your system would start up "without issue" till now, and then suddenly change, is hard to say. But the "design flaw" is evident. That is the first thing to correct. Probably time to check inside the standpipe for obstructions etc. You did incorporate a screw cap to accomplish this right?

Jim

 

[Barfly]

Here's how I made the system as easy a setup as possible. The system runs great and is completely silent. I have a peninsula style tank with a single overflow on the right side of the tank. 3 holes drilled in the bottom. The sump sits directly below the drains so there is no need for elbows or angles. The drain pipes in the overflow are all 1". The siphon drain is a 12" pvc pipe with a mesh tube over the pipe. The open channel is a 1" pipe that extends to about the bottom of the teeth on the overflow. The emergency drain is placed slightly higher.

Here is the mesh I used. It fits perfectly over 1" pvc pipe.
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/821/Mesh-Tubes-Plastic/mesh/1

Using this mesh tubing totally eliminated the need for elbows and/or a durso type standpipe. Again the system works flawlessly and is dead silent. Thanks Bean!

 

[nctinter]

The reason I ask about the filter sock is because it seems crucial that the drain be 1/2 inch to 1 inch under water in the sump to get the siphon. Just not sure if the sick would mess that up, after a few days mine starts to fill up with water. I guess once you get it started then the water level doesn't matter?

 

[uncleof6]

Once started the water level probably won't make much difference, unless the system needs to restart such as after a power outage. If you have not serviced your sock for a week (which is all too common,) well-- think it through. I don't recommend the use of socks, but that is not really associated with the drain system.

Jim

 

[nctinter]

Thanks Jim, I use a sock right now because of massive micro bubbles from my drain. But I imagine that with this style overflow there will be no bubbles or very minimum because of the full siphon. I am sure I will go sans sock with this new setup. I do let mine go over a week without changing.

 

[uncleof6]

Socks need to be changed everyday-- every other day at the very least, but already stuff is raising your nitrate levels.

Jim

 

[nctinter]

yup, it is a tedious task

 

[rayn]

Hmmmm, If i understand this correctly, your siphon and and open channel outlets terminate 4" below water level in the sump?


Why your system would start up "without issue" till now, and then suddenly change, is hard to say. But the "design flaw" is evident. That is the first thing to correct. Probably time to check inside the standpipe for obstructions etc. You did incorporate a screw cap to accomplish this right?

Jim

Yes I have screw caps on all three drain pipes.

Just checked the pipe depth. Main drain is 3 inches below water line, secondary drain is 6 inches below water line. These are both in the skimmer main drain area. The third, emergency drain that goes straight into the return section, is currently out of the water.

All seems to be running just fine right now. I'll check for obstructions, but with it being only a few months old that isn't my bet. But you never know.

 

[uncleof6]

Yes I have screw caps on all three drain pipes.

Just checked the pipe depth. Main drain is 3 inches below water line, secondary drain is 6 inches below water line. These are both in the skimmer main drain area. The third, emergency drain that goes straight into the return section, is currently out of the water.

All seems to be running just fine right now. I'll check for obstructions, but with it being only a few months old that isn't my bet. But you never know.

I guess I am not being clear here. The pipes should terminate in the sump not more than 1" below the water level. Cut your pipes, so they terminate less than or equal to 1" below the water level.

Jim

 

[rayn]

No no, you were clear. I will have to do that. I have to update my sump anyway for the skimmer I bought, so it has to come out then and I can redo the pipes at that time. Thanks!

 

[Daimyo68]

Starting to work on my 125g (72"x18"x24"), going to install an Internal Weir and an External Box for the BA system.

The internal weir will be 52"x2"x5" (not going the full length and using smoked glass to "hide" the internal box).

Couple questions:

1 - Drilling holes on the back glass - Would 3, 1.5" bulkheads be enough "flow through" to the external box? If not, how many would be recommended. (I'm using bulkheads vs just holes because the back glass has a piece of black acrylic already glued in and I want to keep it sealed on both sides).

2 - External box will be made with 3/8" glass, 52"x5"x5", 1.5" bulkheads (much like GlassReef's setup). I'm questioning the strength of the 3/8" glass where the bulkheads go down through the glass. Is their sufficient distance between the outside edge of the holes and the edge of the glass? Or should I use 1/2 glass on the bottom panel?


Thanks

 

[cooper13]

Thank you!

Thank you!

Big thanks to you, BeanAnimal! I very much appreciate the thought that you and others have put into this design and your willingness to share. When I first read this thread, I particularly loved the rational, clearly explained design and quickly targeted it for my 20g nano DIY build.

I'm happy to report that it has been running silently, happily is self-adjusting, and in my mind quite failsafe! I've had water in for three weeks now and feel I made a great decision to go this route, so I thought I'd share my work.

I went with an external overflow box that receives water through 3 holes in the back panel of the display:

Here's the basically finished result (airline for open channel wasn't secured at that point):

Another look from the top:

Here are the three drain lines:

My implementation uses 1" drain lines. There is a ball valve on the closed channel only. I used unions (not true union ball valves) for later disassembly if needed. The return is a 3/4" line. I originally had a Mag 1.9 but found that the flow wasn't quite to my liking (~88 gph with nothing for my fuge), so I switched to a Mag 3 (~200 gph before diverting some flow to the fuge).

Other details can be found in my build thread if desired.

The system is purring along now--the drains are much quieter than the pump. The skimmer is by far the loudest part of my sump.

For those who questioned the use of this on a nano, I say go for it. The design considerations still hold (failsafe, quiet, self-tuning). It might be a bit of work in cramped space, but I'm very happy with it and sleep soundly.

:beer: to BeanAnimal!

 

[reev]

Daimyo68, i have a glass tank of the same size as yours. I made 3 holes for 1" bulkheads for the water to flow from the inside weir into the outside overflow box. This is more than enough for my setup that uses a Mag 9.5 pump. If you want to use a higher flow from the sump, I would say to go with 3x1.5" bulkheads.

I made the inside weir of black acrylic (to match the color of my tank back panel) and the outside box of clear acrylic. The outside box is not glued to the tank, but tied onto using the bulkheads. I made sure the water level in the outside box is over the bulkheads that come from the inside. So far, 6+months, so good, no problems and the overflow is dead silent - I just wish my light fans would be more silent .

 

[rsuplido]

Can anyone tell me what's the smallest sanitary tee and where I can get them? Is there a 1" or 3/4"?

Tia.