Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[Lavoisier]

Another question to the thread:

Would this be the answer to my question?

...The 4th bulkhead could serve as a second open channel. The system would be set to be stable at the lowest surge point or flow and the open channels and siphon would increase in flow as the surge peaked.

 

[TylerHaworth]

Just set up my first Herbie style overflow, there is roughly a 2" difference between the main drain and the backup drain...

Is this too much, too little, or just right?

 

[overexposed]

Hey all, I would like some feedback on my plans before I drill anything.

For my 90g tank, I've acquired 4x 1 1/2" bulkheads. I have a 30g sump. I am planning to do a straight implement of a beananimal overflow, only modification being full 1.5" piping and fittings. There will be two 45's in the drain standpipes, with them going otherwise straight down to the sump. I am planning on a single return line that terminates with a bulkhead and an unglued 45 degree 1.5" slip spigot inside the tank, that I can rotate to change the angle of flow. The overflow box will be placed near one end of the tank, the return bulkhead at the opposite.

Since I want to grow SPS, I want to turn over the DT water as much as possible. I've read that 30-50x turnover is good for SPS. I am planning to purchase a Magdrive 24 as my return pump. I am thinking that I will have about 5-6' of head loss, which may result in about 1800 GPH return (if anyone could do the math for me that would be AMAZING as I have no idea how to figure it out aside from head loss charts and calcs). For the rest of my flow I plan to use a couple big powerheads, am considering an MP40 on the overflow side of the tank, with a Koralia Evo or Magnum on the other side aimed in the general direction of the overflow. Hopefully this will create a gyre effect. I plan on aquascaping two islands, thinking maybe I can get a current running between them. Aiming for about 20 times turnover from the overflow/return system and another 20-30 from powerheads.

Given all that, do any of you see major design flaws that I've overlooked, or see my goals of 40-50x turnover as being impossible to achieve with the given setup? Will it put too much water through my sump? Will the single 1.5" return cut it? (I'm thinking that it will be sufficient since the siphon flow is adjustable, and the pump will also have a gate valve on it but I hope to not use it.) Anyone have a guess at what sort of GPH I'll see on the return? Are my guesses close? I'm not planning any outlets off the return for reactors at this time but may add in later - there will be unions in place allowing me to disassemble the plumbing. Or I may just plumb reactors over the side of my sump... anyways, point is, none right now.

My main concern is that I will have too much flow... I'm pretty sure the overflow system can handle it fine but like I said I don't know how to do the math for it. My secondary concern is about sump/skimmer effectiveness with the high turnover I'm planning, and possibly splashing inside the sump.

Any comments or suggestions will be greatly appreciated, thanks for reading.

I'm hoping to drill and plumb over the next few evenings. Should I interpret lack of response as lack of concern? (Ie solid plan?) Thanks in advance.

 

[uncleof6]

Not a lack of concern, rather a lack of time. Working on a dissertation. Long questions consume time to develop a response. Simple questions, can be answered rather quickly.... Have a short version?

 

[Lavoisier]

I'm hoping to drill and plumb over the next few evenings. Should I interpret lack of response as lack of concern? (Ie solid plan?) Thanks in advance.

Not a bad plan. Your Mag drive should be fine for a 90 gal--certainly not too much. Your turnover will come from your powerheads. I personally like the votec and own them but I've been looking at a thread talking up the Jebo WP40 that you might want to read through (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2259644). There are a number of sources to calculate head loss if you want to get precise (search RC or google) but you look pretty good with your current plan. Uncle or Bean will have to reply to your question on 45s but there are plenty of set ups on the thread that have use them. I believe you want to avoid horizontal pipe.

Regards

 

[overexposed]

Not a lack of concern, rather a lack of time. Working on a dissertation. Long questions consume time to develop a response. Simple questions, can be answered rather quickly.... Have a short version?

Fair enough haha I can get wordy. I guess my question is whether I've chosen the correct size pump (magdrive 24) or not, and whether my calculations are correct about putting approximately 1800 gph through the return using a standard installation of the beananimal overflow with 1.5 inch pipe. Approx 5ft head.

Not a bad plan. Your Mag drive should be fine for a 90 gal--certainly not too much. Your turnover will come from your powerheads. I personally like the votec and own them but I've been looking at a thread talking up the Jebo WP40 that you might want to read through (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2259644). There are a number of sources to calculate head loss if you want to get precise (search RC or google) but you look pretty good with your current plan. Uncle or Bean will have to reply to your question on 45s but there are plenty of set ups on the thread that have use them. I believe you want to avoid horizontal pipe.

Regards

Thanks for the feedback! I was actually just reading the WP40 thread this afternoon, very intriguing. Almost impulse bought one until I saw that they are currently in pre-order status!

 

[TylerHaworth]

Just set up my first Herbie style overflow, there is roughly a 2" difference between the main drain and the backup drain...

Is this too much, too little, or just right?

Anyone?

 

[sleepydoc]

yes.

It doesn't really matter, as long as the back up is dry. No matter what, you should keep an eye on it to make sure the water level stays at an appropriate level as it tends to drift over time.

 

[Lubecky]

Uncle or bean how does this look?
I need to send specs to a fabricator to build the overflow using the exact plumbing on beans website. I'm using TAP plastics to cut drill and well the external overflow box. I will be the one welding it to the tank. 1" bulkheads will go on the back of the overflow.

I'm going to go with 3/8" acrylic.
L=60"
Now the height can only be 4 3/4" because of the bulk head in the middle of the tank. Using a 2" PVC (I will be using a the classic bean overflow exactly so it will be 1.5" PVC but just don't have any right now) it looks like 4 3/4" will be fine but I'm not sure with adding the other plumbing pieces will work for the depth?
So lets say H=4 3/4"
The depth or the bottom piece of the overflow I'm not sure but it looks like 5" would be enough. Anyone know? Using the 2" 90 it gives me 1" inch to fit the remaining plumbing. 6" would prob be better huh?

Okay so lets say L - 60". H - 4 3/4" D- 6". Does that sound about right?

How far down do the three 1.3/4" holes go on H? What is center? Aren't those the right size holes for a 1" bulk head? What is the distance between each hole that is cut?

As a note the bottom of my weir is 1" from the top of my tank (the bottom of my euro brace) my 2 holes are 1/2" wide by 18-1/4" long.

Did I miss anything ? Is this all I would need to give to a fabricator?
<a href="http://s1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh542/lubecky1/?action=view&current=044956E1-6DBB-4847-9E2E-CFE684C16055-13511-000013BB8FAE49BA_zps8667f9a6.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh542/lubecky1/044956E1-6DBB-4847-9E2E-CFE684C16055-13511-000013BB8FAE49BA_zps8667f9a6.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" /></a>

 

[ronl]

3 quick questions for BeanAnimal and uncleof6. Tank will be ~30 gal tank w/ 300-400 gph and external overflow box.

1. Preference for most direct drop to sump (ie, least elbows)? Is it open drain, then siphon, then emergency.

2. For external box w/ three 1" bulkheads, following rule of 1.5x hole diameter from edge of glass, bottom glass would need to be approx 5.5" wide (front to back). For external box, is the 1.5x rule a little flexible so that the box could be shallower front to back? I imagine the glass on the box is under less strain than if it was a hole in the tank itself.

3. If answer above is to stick w/ 5.5" depth, for the open channel w/ 1" bulkhead and 1.25" pipe, how soon do I need to get to the 1.25"? Could I attach two 45 degree elbows directly to the bulkhead then attach 1"-1.25" adaptor so than the pipe can be closer to the tank? Or does the adaptor need to be right after the bulkhead.

Thank you for your help,
Ron

 

[FirstContact]

Sanitary Tee

Sanitary Tee

Hi BeAnAnimal,

I was wondering on my 120 if I can use 1" pipiing with a 1 1/2" sanitary tee if both the inlets and outlets of the tee are reduced to 1".

I have two 1" drains and two 3/4" returns. Basically the same design in my avatar.

I could not get the LFS to drill a fifth hole guaranteed and didn't want to risk it myself.

Thanks a bunch!
First Contact

 

[burban94]

I just installed this overflow system on my 125g a couple of weeks ago and it works perfectly. If I don't run my wavemaker at all, it is DEAD SILENT. I just have one question to throw out there. After I drilled my holes in my external overflow box to accept 1" bulkheads, I noticed that 1" Uni-seals use the same 45mm hole. Could Uni=seals be used in place of standard bulkheads. My thinking is that the flexibility of the Uni-seal would give the plumbing a little play during installation and while in use to help in protecting from cracked glass, which i managed to do on my bottom pane of my overflow during installation. Had to completely take it apart and redo it. I understand that the plumbing should be secured after install, which mine is. This seems like just a little added safety. Any thoughts?

 

[Baldrub]

Gentlemen, forgive me if this has already been answered, but after poking through this great thread for 3 days I find myself compelled to ask.

Being that I have limited space and can't fit three 1" bulkheads in a horizontal line in my internal overflow, is it alright if the penetration for the emergency drain is lower than the primary and open channels? Or even out of the overflow box altogether?

 

[BeanAnimal]

3 quick questions for BeanAnimal and uncleof6. Tank will be ~30 gal tank w/ 300-400 gph and external overflow box.

1. Preference for most direct drop to sump (ie, least elbows)? Is it open drain, then siphon, then emergency.

Most folks end up with a few 45's to get under the stand. Avoid 90's if you can.

2. For external box w/ three 1" bulkheads, following rule of 1.5x hole diameter from edge of glass, bottom glass would need to be approx 5.5" wide (front to back). For external box, is the 1.5x rule a little flexible so that the box could be shallower front to back? I imagine the glass on the box is under less strain than if it was a hole in the tank itself.

Yes, you can get away with a bit less clearance. In reality, as long as you can get the holes drilled and the box constructed, it will be fine no matter what the spacing is. Remember that you still need to get your hands in there sometimes, so 5.5" is not really that "big". Also remember that the "rule of thumb" applies to the hole diameter, not the nominal pipe (bulkhead) size.

3. If answer above is to stick w/ 5.5" depth, for the open channel w/ 1" bulkhead and 1.25" pipe, how soon do I need to get to the 1.25"? Could I attach two 45 degree elbows directly to the bulkhead then attach 1"-1.25" adaptor so than the pipe can be closer to the tank? Or does the adaptor need to be right after the bulkhead.

Larger pipe equates to less friction loss and more open area in the case of the "open channel". It is advisable to adapt to 1.25 as soon as possible, especially for the open channel. A few quick bends in narrow pipe in the open channel, may cause turbulence and noise, especially in the narrow pipe.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Hi BeAnAnimal,

I was wondering on my 120 if I can use 1" pipiing with a 1 1/2" sanitary tee if both the inlets and outlets of the tee are reduced to 1".

I have two 1" drains and two 3/4" returns. Basically the same design in my avatar.

I could not get the LFS to drill a fifth hole guaranteed and didn't want to risk it myself.

Thanks a bunch!
First Contact

Sorry, but I don't have avatars turned on.

It really depends on the return pump size, but 1" pipe is rather restrictive with regard to the open channel unless the return pump is very small. Is there a reason you don't want to go with the larger pipe with the 1" bulkheads? Use the 1" bulkheads for emergency and open channel, the 3/4" for the siphon.

 

[BeanAnimal]

. After I drilled my holes in my external overflow box to accept 1" bulkheads, I noticed that 1" Uni-seals use the same 45mm hole. Could Uni=seals be used in place of standard bulkheads. My thinking is that the flexibility of the Uni-seal would give the plumbing a little play during installation and while in use to help in protecting from cracked glass, which i managed to do on my bottom pane of my overflow during installation. Had to completely take it apart and redo it. I understand that the plumbing should be secured after install, which mine is. This seems like just a little added safety. Any thoughts?

Uniseals could be used, but consider that they can put significant pressure on the panel they breach. In a small overflow box there is not much glass around the perimeter of the hole and the uniseal can (will) impart tremendous stress to the panel, making their use a much riskier proposition than a traditional bulkhead.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Gentlemen, forgive me if this has already been answered, but after poking through this great thread for 3 days I find myself compelled to ask.

Being that I have limited space and can't fit three 1" bulkheads in a horizontal line in my internal overflow, is it alright if the penetration for the emergency drain is lower than the primary and open channels? Or even out of the overflow box altogether?

The water cares not where the it passes through the panel

Yes, in practice the emergency overflow intake could be outside of the overflow box, as long as it is set at a height that will allow it to function properly. Consider that "outside" of the overflow box, it is not protected by the weir, and anything can flow toward it and/or block it.

 

[burban94]

Uniseals could be used, but consider that they can put significant pressure on the panel they breach. In a small overflow box there is not much glass around the perimeter of the hole and the uniseal can (will) impart tremendous stress to the panel, making their use a much riskier proposition than a traditional bulkhead.

So, would you say Uniseals are best left to 3/8" and above glass thicknesses?

 

[BeanAnimal]

It is not so much the glass thickness, but rather the probable force in relation to the area between the holes and the edge of the panel. Seating the fitting in a uni-seal takes significant force, and once seated the uni-seal creates a static load against the class due to the fit of the pipe that passes through it. This is simply not a good option (for this application) when compared to a traditional bulkhead fitting.

 

[jerpa]

Since your reasoning behind using the uniseals is to prevent cracking the glass I don't think it would be wise. Any "give" you feel you have when running the plumbing will still be stressing the panel.

Just thought I'd pad my post count a bit.