Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[ravenzme]

Just posting this here to help with anyone else who may be running into issues. A week or so ago, I was reading through this thread and saw uncleof6 mention that the pipes should not have bubbles coming out of them, and should never be making noise.

Well, my set up was dead silent for the first couple of months, and then suddenly, they started to make noise and I noticed a bunch of bubbles coming out of the channel pipe return.

I opened my valve on the siphon ALL the way up to flush anything that might be stuck in there- sure enough a snail popped out into the sump. I closed the valve back to the pre-marked spot, and once again silent and no bubbles. I guess my point is if your set up is making any noise, or you are seeing bubbles in your sump, either things are not dialed in yet, or something needs attention. I'm sure this information is not new for the more experienced folks, but uncleof6's post really helped me to go troubleshooting, or I would never have looked and just accepted the bubbles and low level noise.

 

[ilikefish34]

I did my due diligence of researching this system quite a while back and then threw that out the window by not revisiting this thread and reviewing the information before plumbing my own. Here's what I did... I used 1.25" bulkheads and 1" PCV for both sides and spear gate valves for that 1" line. By not using a bushing to go from that 1" to the 1.5", as shown in the figure, I will have smaller than desired lines because of the gate valves (even when fully opened).

1. Is this problem something that I can overcome or should I cut and redo? I would assume yes but saw another picture of someone's system that did not use the bushing to go up in size and used the same size PVC on either side of the bulkheads but I lost is amongst this huge, and greatly informative, thread.

2. If the sump is divided for a refugium on one side, the skimmer on the other and center section separated by baffles from the other two, can the main drain line be teed off to go to both and each have their own gate valve or is this excessiveness problematic for keeping the proper (silent) siphon? I ask because I have this style sump in the garage and preferred it since it was larger (75 gallon) but opted for a 50 breeder that is a more traditional one with the drain on one side and the return on the other end... never too late to change.

It hasn't been tested because one of the bulkheads threads are stripped and I know that it won't hold and need to purchase another.

The return pump is an eheim 1262 and the tank is a 210.

Thank you for any and all help.
Mike

 

[uncleof6]

I did my due diligence of researching this system quite a while back and then threw that out the window by not revisiting this thread and reviewing the information before plumbing my own. Here's what I did... I used 1.25" bulkheads and 1" PCV for both sides and spear gate valves for that 1" line. By not using a bushing to go from that 1" to the 1.5", as shown in the figure, I will have smaller than desired lines because of the gate valves (even when fully opened).

1. Is this problem something that I can overcome or should I cut and redo? I would assume yes but saw another picture of someone's system that did not use the bushing to go up in size and used the same size PVC on either side of the bulkheads but I lost is amongst this huge, and greatly informative, thread.

Flow rate is determined by the smallest diameter in the piping system. In this case, it is going to be 1", regardless of the bulkhead size.

Is that a problem? Sure, if you figure out the eheim 1262 is too small a pump for this tank. I would not consider using this antiquated pump in the first place, but were I to use it, I would not put it on anything larger than a 60 gallon hobby tank, not a 200 plus big tank.

With the eheim, you will likely get somewhere around 600 gph, to the tank, and since 1" pipe with a 24" drop should get you ~1200 gph capacity. From that point of view it is not a problem. If you want to run the tank how it should be run up around 2000 gph, you are going to have to use 1.25" as the smallest diameter, or you won't make it. To be honest, I would run the 1.25" bulkheads with 1.5" pipe: better results.

2. If the sump is divided for a refugium on one side, the skimmer on the other and center section separated by baffles from the other two, can the main drain line be teed off to go to both and each have their own gate valve or is this excessiveness problematic for keeping the proper (silent) siphon? I ask because I have this style sump in the garage and preferred it since it was larger (75 gallon) but opted for a 50 breeder that is a more traditional one with the drain on one side and the return on the other end... never too late to change.

Do not tee or otherwise mess with the siphon. This just adds more variables to the equation, and it may not work out so good. In every single situation, the best way to feed an end fuge is with a branch in the return line. Another reason the eheim 1262 is no good for this size tank.

It hasn't been tested because one of the bulkheads threads are stripped and I know that it won't hold and need to purchase another.

The return pump is an eheim 1262 and the tank is a 210.

Do yourself a favor and get a real pump for this tank. Try something in the RLSS Waveline DC series....

Eheim 2162 0' 900 gph = 80 watts Max head: 11.5'
RLSS Waveline DC-10000II 0' 2853 gph = 85 watts. Max head: 16.4', variable speed DC motor.

Really, now.....Eheim is an antique.

Thank you for any and all help.
Mike

 

[ilikefish34]

My number one concern, as I should have been more specific, is will the smaller size of the gate valve opening in conjunction with the 1" line inhibit the silent nature of this design.

I know what you mean as far as the flow rate that is produced by this pump vs. the size tank. This pump was chosen, along with the overflow, because it needs to be silent in our smallish living room and was based on advice from this forum. To achieve adequate flow in the DT will be supplementing with several powerbeads (2 x wp40 and 3 x koralias). But your advice about how to supply flow to the fuge were along my thoughts so perhaps another pump is in order.

Kicking myself for not returning and to this thread before purchasing and glueing!

Thank you
Mike

 

[woodnaquanut]

My number one concern, as I should have been more specific, is will the smaller size of the gate valve opening in conjunction with the 1" line inhibit the silent nature of this design.

I know what you mean as far as the flow rate that is produced by this pump vs. the size tank. This pump was chosen, along with the overflow, because it needs to be silent in our smallish living room and was based on advice from this forum. To achieve adequate flow in the DT will be supplementing with several powerbeads (2 x wp40 and 3 x koralias). But your advice about how to supply flow to the fuge were along my thoughts so perhaps another pump is in order.

Kicking myself for not returning and to this thread before purchasing and glueing!

Thank you
Mike

I'm running this 'antiquated' pump on my 120G. Works fine. One inch OF plumbing is really silent. Pump is not completely silent. Some might call the pump antiquated, I prefer 'proven'.

I agree this pump is somewhat undersized for your tank. Upsizing the pump will have ramifications for the plumbing. If it were my tank, I'd upsize the pump and plumbing now. It's all so much harder to do after it's all running.

You could sell the 1262 and recoup most of the cost. I might even know someone that would buy it if the price is right! It might have other uses like mixing station pump, back up to the main pump, etc.

Plumbing might be a total lost but it's not all that much $$ compared to the other reef expenses.

 

[woodnaquanut]

I just realized I didn't really answer your question about silence!

The beauty of this design is with a full siphon large amounts of water can flow and stay silent. The big problem I've noticed is when there is NO water noise, other sounds seem more dominate. Pumps are the big noise makers! I can also hear the LED cooling fans come on! The hummmmmm is, to me, more annoying than water flow. It's such an unnatural sound. As I get older and hearing gets worst perhaps that won't be as big an issue.

 

[uncleof6]

My number one concern, as I should have been more specific, is will the smaller size of the gate valve opening in conjunction with the 1" line inhibit the silent nature of this design.

The design is silent, regardless of flow rate/pipe size provided it is adjusted properly. You will have a "harder" time getting the open channel to be quiet using 1" pipe. 1" is impractical for a "durso" style standpipe. Since the open channel is a durso style standpipe, it makes sense that 1" is also impractical for the open channel.

A siphon is silent. Unless you have an unusually long drop (basement) the 1" valve would be fine. With a long drop, put the valve down by the sump, to keep the system silent.

The other part of silence is the sump design. Short wide sumps will be quiet(er) than tall narrow sumps (50 breeder vs. 75.) It is not about gallons, it is about footprint. There is not much difference foot print wise between the two, but the 75 is tall, which makes it a poorer choice than the 50 breeder.

I know what you mean as far as the flow rate that is produced by this pump vs. the size tank. This pump was chosen, along with the overflow, because it needs to be silent in our smallish living room and was based on advice from this forum. To achieve adequate flow in the DT will be supplementing with several powerbeads (2 x wp40 and 3 x koralias).

With all those powerheads, you are going to mix the dissolved organics back down into the tank, rather than pull them out of the tank and send them to the skimmer. Seems overkill on the powerheads, and underpowered on the main pump—the heart of the system. This is based on why these systems required the use of powerheads, before the internet/forums brought about interpretive issuses, for the vertical mixing that is absent in a system that drains from the top, and returns to the top, rather than going down (or up) through an undergravel filter. The notion that powerheads add to some arbitrary imaginary "rule of thumb" flow rate is rather absurd, and the rule of thumb flow are as antiquated as the undergravel filters are... the two "flows" do different tasks, so they cannot be additive.

If you like the rules of thumb, figure this out: 2000 gph on the return, 2 mp40s (6000 gph) for a total of 8000 gph = 40x effortlessly. Not many systems even get close to these "rules of thumb" if you put a flow meter on them, rather than guess. But that does not mean you will not have dead spots. That is what the powerheads are for: to prevent dead spots in the tank, not add to the main return flow....

But your advice about how to supply flow to the fuge were along my thoughts so perhaps another pump is in order.

Kicking myself for not returning and to this thread before purchasing and glueing!

Thank you
Mike

It happens, and has happened to us all. I think one of the larger issues, is trying to run a big tank the same as a hobby tank.

 

[uncleof6]

I'm running this 'antiquated' pump on my 120G. Works fine. One inch OF plumbing is really silent. Pump is not completely silent. Some might call the pump antiquated, I prefer 'proven'.

I agree this pump is somewhat undersized for your tank. Upsizing the pump will have ramifications for the plumbing. If it were my tank, I'd upsize the pump and plumbing now. It's all so much harder to do after it's all running.

You could sell the 1262 and recoup most of the cost. I might even know someone that would buy it if the price is right! It might have other uses like mixing station pump, back up to the main pump, etc.

Plumbing might be a total lost but it's not all that much $$ compared to the other reef expenses.

Works fine, really does not say anything...I have a 120 running a dart. Like Bean, I haven't gotten around to swapping it out yet.

Proven does not make it less antiquated. A simple look at the numbers is ample demonstration. Folks can continue to use these cheap pond pumps, or they can switch to better pumps, that are far more efficient. I am sorry, this is 2014, not the stoneage. More so than the eheim, are the mag drives...

Another use for the eheim is to run that pond you are going to build next year. Why not use it for what it was designed to run?

 

[woodnaquanut]

Works fine, really does not say anything...I have a 120 running a dart. Like Bean, I haven't gotten around to swapping it out yet.

Proven does not make it less antiquated. A simple look at the numbers is ample demonstration. Folks can continue to use these cheap pond pumps, or they can switch to better pumps, that are far more efficient. I am sorry, this is 2014, not the stoneage. More so than the eheim, are the mag drives...

Another use for the eheim is to run that pond you are going to build next year. Why not use it for what it was designed to run?

My concept with 'proven' is it's a pump that has been used for a long time. Is known to be reliable. I did a search for Waveline DC on RC and it seems like this pump came out in mid 2012. I'd like a little more history on my return pump. Yes, just like stocks, 'Past performance is not a indication of future performance'. It's all a crap shoot. You gotta give it your gut feeling for 'best'.

If the Wavelines are still in business in a couple of years, I'll give it a shot.

I don't mind being on the bleeding edge for computers, but I'm a bit more conservative in my tank.

I'm not sure who uncle is talking to about ponds. I do have one. No pump at all. Don't feed the goldfish - they multiply like crazy if I do! About 30 GF and one BIG frog in it! RIBBIT...

 

[uncleof6]

The RLSS pumps were made available for sale in the U.S. in 2012, they have been around quite a bit longer than that. I know many that were chomping at the bit to get their hands on one...

 

[rogergolf66]

ok I have the bean animal running on my 120 gallon. here is my issue. when the return pump turns back on the full syphon line with the gate value doesn't work at all. I have to remove the pipe that's in the sump under the water and let air in. after that it works fine. why is this and how do I fix it?

 

[BeanAnimal]

roger,

The siphon standpipe discharge is fitted too deep into the sump. It should only be an inch or less under water during normal system operation. In some cases, drilling a few 1/4" holes in the siphon discharge, just above the normal operating waterline of the sump, can also help. That said, there really should be no need to drill the holes.

 

[rogergolf66]

roger,

The siphon standpipe discharge is fitted too deep into the sump. It should only be an inch or less under water during normal system operation. In some cases, drilling a few 1/4" holes in the siphon discharge, just above the normal operating waterline of the sump, can also help. That said, there really should be no need to drill the holes.

Ok Thx should I cut all the pipes to just an 1 inch below water level in sump?

 

[Jimbojames]

COULD I FEED THIS SKIMMER WITH 1 OF THE 3 OVERFLOW DRAINS?

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/reef-octopus-diablo-dcrs-250-recirculating-protein-skimmer.htm

 

[SoLiD]

No... You have to use all 3 to balance the siphon. You need to read the concept again because I don't think you full grasp how it's supposed to work.

Drain 1 = Full siphon
Drain 2 = partial trickle drain which can full siphon if water level rises too high.
Drain 3 = Emergency Open channel drain incase something happens to the other 2 drains.

 

[BattleAthletics]

No... You have to use all 3 to balance the siphon. You need to read the concept again because I don't think you full grasp how it's supposed to work.

Drain 1 = Full siphon
Drain 2 = partial trickle drain which can full siphon if water level rises too high.
Drain 3 = Emergency Open channel drain incase something happens to the other 2 drains.

Hey D, do you use a BA overflow on your 40?

I'm honestly amazed how silent this overflow is.

 

[SoLiD]

Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

Yes I do. I have the concept down pretty good. It's easy to tune once you get what it is doing.

And yes... It's very very quiet

 

[BattleAthletics]

Same here, the concept is simple to grasp once you know what to do. I'll be honest I was scared of it not working properly and thinking I ruined a Solana.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2373034

Link to my build, Glenn wants you to make a build thread man, FYI that first op on the other forum has the most likes of any post ever. Congrats, people are dying to see a build thread.

 

[NeveSSL]

Anyone have any tips for getting the siphon to automatically restart? I've got a long-ish run out of my overflow, though the wall, and into my garage. Will that keep the siphon from automatically starting? I've got the siphon a little below the partial and the partial a little below the emergency. I'm at a loss for what do do from here to get it to work.

Any help would be much appreciated!

Brandon

 

[NeveSSL]

Nevermind, I found the issue. There was too much difference between my full siphon and partial and it was causing all of the water to go through the emergency drain instead of pushing on the full siphon for it to start.

Brandon