Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

Pretty much out of luck, in terms of Bean's system. I have advised at one time, a "herbie" like conversion (1 siphon, 1 DRY emergency) for an HOB overflow, but there is no fail safety to it, as the failure point is the u-tubes, not the drains in the overflow.

That said, the 1" bulkheads at the sump (assuming a normal drop) will not allow 2000 gph to flow, and it is most likely down around 1200 gph. If the overflow system you have, is bone stock, It is not flowing that...if it is trying to, it is horribly unstable.

You have a 40br sumpless tank? What is the overflow doing? 40 breeders are usually not tempered (on the sides anyway) so best bet is to drill the back, and do it right... ;)
 
Thanks to everyone for all the help. Especially uncleof6 and Mrramsey. I am sure I will need more help when I get this actually up and running.

Thanks again
 
Pretty much out of luck, in terms of Bean's system. I have advised at one time, a "herbie" like conversion (1 siphon, 1 DRY emergency) for an HOB overflow, but there is no fail safety to it, as the failure point is the u-tubes, not the drains in the overflow.

That said, the 1" bulkheads at the sump (assuming a normal drop) will not allow 2000 gph to flow, and it is most likely down around 1200 gph. If the overflow system you have, is bone stock, It is not flowing that...if it is trying to, it is horribly unstable.

You have a 40br sumpless tank? What is the overflow doing? 40 breeders are usually not tempered (on the sides anyway) so best bet is to drill the back, and do it right... ;)

I am upgrading to a drilled Acrylic Half Cylinder. I'm sorry for the confusion, but I do not have a hang on back overflow.. it's a drilled tank, but via back pack style.

Edit: I am sorry for the sideways photo.. my software is acting funky...
 

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Side-drilling?

Side-drilling?

I inherited a 75 gal tank, with a hang-on overflow on the right hand side - the stand is wider on the right, and has an extra piece that was made to cover the pipes coming down the right hand side.

I want to convert to use 3 pipes per Bean's system...am I at a disadvantage drilling the 3 holes in the side of the tank rather than the back?

cheers

David
 
I inherited a 75 gal tank, with a hang-on overflow on the right hand side - the stand is wider on the right, and has an extra piece that was made to cover the pipes coming down the right hand side.



I want to convert to use 3 pipes per Bean's system...am I at a disadvantage drilling the 3 holes in the side of the tank rather than the back?



cheers



David


It has been done. There are many posts on it where guys are doing it for a peninsula set up.
 
It has been done. There are many posts on it where guys are doing it for a peninsula set up.

thanks...I knew it was possible, but I would really like to set this tank up the best way possible. But I'm pretty new to all this.

What are the advantages / disadvantages of setting up a box across the back vs across the side? What implications are there for quality of water? And would it have effect on flow rate?

thanks!

David
 
The flow is dependant on how much you are pumping in. The biggest advantage to the overflow on the back is the coast to coast. Wider is better when it comes to surface skimming thus better water quality.

The drains are drains and would function fine in either location. There is potential for noise I suppose with a narrower over flow and a high flow rate.
 
Hi, I have read several pages but not all. So if this question have been brought up I'm sorry for asking it again. I plan to drill 120G and need advice on overflow sizes. I want to use Ghost overflow design and use two acrylic boxes. My questions are:

1. What size internal box should be? Is 12-16 x 4 x 1.5 enough, I want to minimize internal box as much as possible.

2. What size for external box.

3. Hole size between boxes = 1 1/2?
 
I'm still having some issue tuning the noise level. I made sure the pipes are about 1" under sump water. Maybe 1.5 drains is too much for a 100gal. My Siphon valve is almost fully closed. Anything <80% closed, it will drain the overflow dry.

so now I'm got the siphon valve almost closed. I closed off the return pipe at least 50% so my sump doesn't run too low. The Open Channel is doing most of the work. I still hear quite a bit of water noise..


edit: It's ALOT quieter if I also turn the Open Channel valve down.. would that be ok in the long run? Both pipes will be closed more than 50%
 
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I'm still having some issue tuning the noise level. I made sure the pipes are about 1" under sump water. Maybe 1.5 drains is too much for a 100gal. My Siphon valve is almost fully closed. Anything <80% closed, it will drain the overflow dry.

so now I'm got the siphon valve almost closed. I closed off the return pipe at least 50% so my sump doesn't run too low. The Open Channel is doing most of the work. I still hear quite a bit of water noise..


edit: It's ALOT quieter if I also turn the Open Channel valve down.. would that be ok in the long run? Both pipes will be closed more than 50%

IF the open channel is carrying the load, then the system is not tuned near right. There should not be a valve on the open channel, it is completely unnecessary, and closing it just makes matters worse, not better. A valve on the open channel would be for on/off operation ONLY!

Flow in will equal flow out. If you put ten gallons per hour into the tank, 10 gallons an hour will flow into the overflows, and down the drain. Close the siphon valve till water just flows in the open channel. This will behave exactly like 3000 gph, adjusted in the same manner. (10 gph is ridiculously low, however, you get the idea.)

The likely problem goes back to square one, and there is an issue with the implementation of the system.

1) You may have air leaks in the siphon.
2) The air vent line is too low in the overflow. It should be above the inlet to the dry emergency.
3) You may have 90s in the drain lines, creating horizontal runs, which cause the siphon to air lock, and the open channel takes most of the flow.
4) Yeah, 1.5" drains (assuming 1.5" bulkheads) would be overkill for this tank. However 1.5" pipe on 1" bulkheads would be as designed, and certainly works very well, at a very wide range of flow rates.

Open the pump up, the drains can handle way more than the pump you have can send up to the tank, unless you got crazy large with the pump and are running a dart like I would...
 
Did a search through the thread, and while I found some occurrences of double wye, I didnt see what I am thinking. My sump is off to the side of my tank and about 4 feet from the display. I have my 3 1.5" pipes coming down from the display. Rather than run 3 1.5" pipes to the sump, could I put a 3" or bigger wye to connect the drains, then run just 1 pipe to the sump? If anything is big enough to clog a 3" pipe, it isnt going to fit down the 1" elbow in the overflow. Im thinking it should work, I just want to get opinions before I proceed.
 
No, you cannot. That will make every single drain line an open channel, (air sucked in through the open channel and dry emergency lines) and if going to do that, may as well use 3 dursos, because that is all the performance you will get out of it. :)
 
1) You may have air leaks in the siphon.
2) The air vent line is too low in the overflow. It should be above the inlet to the dry emergency.
3) You may have 90s in the drain lines, creating horizontal runs, which cause the siphon to air lock, and the open channel takes most of the flow.
4) Yeah, 1.5" drains (assuming 1.5" bulkheads) would be overkill for this tank. However 1.5" pipe on 1" bulkheads would be as designed, and certainly works very well, at a very wide range of flow rates.

Thanks!! I opened the return to max and shut down the siphon. It wouldn't even build up to the emergency. Opened up the siphon a little and worked from there.

It's much quieter now. However, I still heard noise coming from the 90 elbow. Sucks..

I might have a possible air leak? I had to shorten the pipe distance in the sump so I cut it and connected them with a PVC connector. I didn't use primer or glue, just pushed it in. It's just above water level in sump. Do you think that might suck in air?
 
Thanks!! I opened the return to max and shut down the siphon. It wouldn't even build up to the emergency. Opened up the siphon a little and worked from there.

It's much quieter now. However, I still heard noise coming from the 90 elbow. Sucks..

I might have a possible air leak? I had to shorten the pipe distance in the sump so I cut it and connected them with a PVC connector. I didn't use primer or glue, just pushed it in. It's just above water level in sump. Do you think that might suck in air?


Check in the sump. If you are sucking air there will be bubbles coming out of the drain.
 
Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

Uncleof6 - what would going from 1/4" airline to say 3/8 or 1/2" on the open channel have? I am wondering is there would be fewer air bubbles in the sump. I have compensated slightly as an experiment by closing the valve to the same rate as the main siphon. My theory is it is slowing the flow enough that it is allowing the air in the line to dissipate back out of the vent. I.e less air trapped and sucked down into the sump.

Might just be an illusion. Just a curiosity more than anything else what I have is more than acceptable.

adaqenaj.jpg
 
Uncleof6 - what would going from 1/4" airline to say 3/8 or 1/2" on the open channel have? I am wondering is there would be fewer air bubbles in the sump. I have compensated slightly as an experiment by closing the valve to the same rate as the main siphon. My theory is it is slowing the flow enough that it is allowing the air in the line to dissipate back out of the vent. I.e less air trapped and sucked down into the sump.

Might just be an illusion. Just a curiosity more than anything else what I have is more than acceptable.

I'm not Uncle but let me give it a shot.

Changing airline size is not needed. It's only purpose is to create a full siphon when the normal siphon line is blocked. There is no need to have a valve on the open channel. You want it to 'siphon, gurgle, siphon' if the main (aka siphon) gets blocked. This will let you know something is wrong!

The siphon should carry almost all the water. The open should only have a trickle and thus not make any noise. If your open is carrying lots of water it will make bubbles and noise. In that case open the siphon valve some.
 
I'm not Uncle but let me give it a shot.

Changing airline size is not needed. It's only purpose is to create a full siphon when the normal siphon line is blocked. There is no need to have a valve on the open channel. You want it to 'siphon, gurgle, siphon' if the main (aka siphon) gets blocked. This will let you know something is wrong!

The siphon should carry almost all the water. The open should only have a trickle and thus not make any noise. If your open is carrying lots of water it will make bubbles and noise. In that case open the siphon valve some.

I am aware that you don't need it however I use it to test the system i.e full blockage testing. Mainly I was just wondering it there would be any affect using a larger air source.

I have it dialed in pretty well now to where I get very little bubbling from the open channel, probably a quarter of what you see in the pic. Noise?? well I cant say right now because this Mag24 is driving me nuts lol. Its all I hear. I am going to order a DC12000 this week I think. The DC10000II would probably be enough but planning on future equipment etc I think bigger is better.
 
Thanks!! I opened the return to max and shut down the siphon. It wouldn't even build up to the emergency. Opened up the siphon a little and worked from there.

It's much quieter now. However, I still heard noise coming from the 90 elbow. Sucks..

I might have a possible air leak? I had to shorten the pipe distance in the sump so I cut it and connected them with a PVC connector. I didn't use primer or glue, just pushed it in. It's just above water level in sump. Do you think that might suck in air?

I am not following you. You opened the return, ok. Then shut down the siphon? Why?

What size are your bulkheads?

Open the siphon valve all the way OPEN. Pull the air vent line off the open channel. (hang on to it, as you will need to reinstall it, after you get the system working right.) If there is a valve on the open channel, open that valve all the way—then remove the handle on it, and never touch it again. If you have any horizontal sections in the drain lines, those need to be angled down to at least 45°. Measure first, then cut off the pipes in the sump at 7/8" below water level. Don't guess: measure, mark, and cut. ;) If they are already shorter than that, don't bother with it.

Remove the added elbow down at the sump. If that pipe comes up too short because of that, you will have to replace that pipe, so it will not be too short. (eventually.)

Fire up the system, with the return line wide open. IF the top end of the system is built right, there is no way the tank will overflow with the return wide open. If the water level in the overflow does not rise, flow in the dry emergency for a while, then suddenly drop, with the settings as I have instructed, then you need to look at your return plumbing/pump and figure out why you got zip for flow.

AND/OR:

If you have 1.5" bulkheads, I would suggest you bush them down to 1", then back up to 1.5". There have been scattered incidents of starting issues with very low flow systems with large bulkheads.

After the startup sequence (a few minutes,) if there are bubbles coming from the siphon line, it is either air locked, (not purging the air) or there is an air leak. IF there are bubbles coming from the open channel, the water level is too high, and too much water is flowing in the open channel.

When the system is operating right, water level rises, flows in the dry emergency (and open channel) for a while (minutes.) When the siphon kicks in, the water level drops. With the valve on the siphon, raise the water level in the overflow till water just starts to flow in the open channel. This level is around the lower half of the downturned elbow on the the open channel, where it joins the bulkhead. Running water level is usually ~ the top of the downturned elbows.

Mrramsey: Your systems has the same basic issue that m0nkie's system has. You need to go through it a piece at a time, as indicated above. Increasing the size of the air vent will have the opposite effect than what you want. Increasing the size, means more air and consequently less water allowed, without bubbles. The folks that advise on quieting dursos have the physics reversed. It is not about letting more air in, it is about reducing the amount of water, for the amount of air you have. The balance is the point where water flows on the walls of the pipe, with calm air (not moving) in the middle.

NOTE:
If the air vent line inlet is below the inlet to the dry emergency, too much water will flow in the open channel; the main siphon will not start, because the open channel will take too much flow...(yes that is circular) that is why I say take it off to get the system running right, and for testing the first level failsafe, the dry emergency, which should take water first, before the open channel, in the event of a siphon blockage. The only time the open channel should trip to siphon is if BOTH the siphon and dry emergency are blocked...

When you put the air vent line back on, if the system starts acting up, well...you know what the problem is...
 
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I'm not Uncle but let me give it a shot.

Changing airline size is not needed. It's only purpose is to create a full siphon when the normal siphon line is blocked. There is no need to have a valve on the open channel. You want it to 'siphon, gurgle, siphon' if the main (aka siphon) gets blocked. This will let you know something is wrong!

The siphon should carry almost all the water. The open should only have a trickle and thus not make any noise. If your open is carrying lots of water it will make bubbles and noise. In that case open the siphon valve some.

This system is incredibly easy to troubleshoot, as there are only a handful of things that can be wrong. No need to be "me" to troubleshoot it. ;)
 
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