Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

I gotcha. When i posted it that late at night I wasnt thinking. But here is another for you. Does the emergency need to be a siphon, or can you just turn that into a durso basically? Again, I am more looking at conserving space.

It must be capable of siphon, so making it into an open channel/durso, is out of the question.
 
You could do it like that. The flow would be reduced. I have a 72g with a 20g sump that is all 3/4" I get like 5-600gph max out of it. That being said my tank was already drilled and intended for the BA setup. Had I done it I would have just used the 1" bulkheads and 1.25" drains like I did on my 120g.

There have been others that have used all 1" and I think I read a few instances of 1/2" somewhere obviously on a nano tank of some sort. I would recommend sticking with the original design specs though. there really is not a huge cost difference between 1 and 1.25 or 1.5" pipe except the valves.
Interested in what rates I could get?

This seems to suggest the 1" bulkhead limits things a lot - guessing that's not true? http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f217/how-much-can-a-1-bulkhead-flow-129841.html

cheers

David
 
That article is about durso stand pipe drains and not full siphons.

I can easily do 900gph with the 1" bulkheads in my system. I run it at 700. I can max my 3/4 bulkheads at 600gph.

Ah, good to know - thanks!

I would like to eventually try my hand at SPS - what kind of turnover do I need for that? would 900 GPH be enough?

cheers

David
 
Ah, good to know - thanks!



I would like to eventually try my hand at SPS - what kind of turnover do I need for that? would 900 GPH be enough?



cheers



David


Also remember to calculate your powerheads/wave makers into that number as well. I don't think you would have enough flow just from filtration power alone.
 
It would be enough, if the pump and plumbing to the tank, make it possible...

Ummm...can you explain more what you mean by that?


Also, if I went with 1 1/2" bulkheads, would that force a minimum flow I'd have to keep up with?

[You can tell I'm new to all this ;) ]

cheers

David
 
Ummm...can you explain more what you mean by that?


Also, if I went with 1 1/2" bulkheads, would that force a minimum flow I'd have to keep up with?

[You can tell I'm new to all this ;) ]

cheers

David

There is some engineering and math involved in planning a return system that will do the flow that you want...most simply throw stuff together, and never end up where they think they are. Static head, plus friction loss in the plumbing system (from the sump, through the pump, and up the return) = dynamic head, which is the number applied to the flow curve as head height.

Water in = water out. You cannot get more water out than you put in, so there is nothing you need to keep up with.

Unless you are pumping above 1500 gph, there is no reason in the world to use 1.5" bulkheads.

Ah, good to know - thanks!

I would like to eventually try my hand at SPS - what kind of turnover do I need for that? would 900 GPH be enough?

cheers

David

Well, the rules of thumb are arbitrary, and really do not hold any real value, since we cannot even think about approaching lateral or cross-reef flow in the ocean. What is important to realize and understand, is the relationship between recirculative flow (turnovers) and circulative flow (mixing/dispersion) is not supplementary or complementary (add to a "whole,") rather it is adjunctive. (related in a subordinate role.) Circulative flow, disperses the recirculative flow, to all points of the tank. Overemphazing the dispersion, at the expense of turnovers, simply keeps the "dirty" water in the tank, rather than supplying "clean" water to all points of the tank.

You have to view an aqaurium as a living thing. It has a heart, blood vessels, kidneys, liver, etc. (some even have brains. ;) ) Think of it like this: If the heart does not put out a sufficient volume, you can expect poor health, and very possibly death.

The difference with an aquarium is the heart pumps, however, there are not blood vessels in the tank, to move the water where it needs to go. An adjunctive aid is needed to keep the blood "flowing," because the return is not able to disperse the water (despite the silly gadgets intended for this purpose, and multiple outlets.) In days past this was not a concern as water entered the top, and exited through the bottom or vice versa. Hence power heads were put into service. The flow rates back then were due to misunderstanding as well.

The systems always did better at higher flow rates. They were not single pass sytems, and still aren't. I first realized this back in the early 80's. Was running an 80 gal, with a March AC-3-MD, through a UG. (rated around 750 gph, probably actually putting out around 400 gph.) After fighting with the tank for quite some time, and some odiferous emissions, I swapped the pump out for a Little Giant TE-5MD-HC, rated ~ 1200 gph, ( Current price check only: $400 on ebay, SRP is ~ $800, and it still runs) and the problem cleared up, and never had a lick of trouble with the tank after that...

So how many turnovers do you need? Higher is better, (volume,) but remember the power heads are adjunctive aids, not the whole show, as many would think. You need sufficient circulation in the tank to prevent "dead spots;" the rest is basically nonsense. Higher flow in the tank is not at all a bad thing, however, since it is adjunctive, you oughta be upping the return flow as well.

This is a fairly hot topic, and it is often way overthought, or way under thought; even makes for some lively debates, which is not all that great. However, the model for an aquarium is a living organism, not power usage, or rules of thumb, or even common practice.
 
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Thanks, too, uncleof6! Very helpful to increase my broad understanding...

There is some engineering and math involved in planning a return system that will do the flow that you want...most simply throw stuff together, and never end up where they think they are. Static head, plus friction loss in the plumbing system (from the sump, through the pump, and up the return) = dynamic head, which is the number applied to the flow curve as head height.

Water in = water out. You cannot get more water out than you put in, so there is nothing you need to keep up with.

Unless you are pumping above 1500 gph, there is no reason in the world to use 1.5" bulkheads.
By 'keeping up' I meant keeping the full siphon on with the larger bulkheads (but that may just reveal my ignorance ;) )

Is there anything you could point me to to calculate the dynamic head? I can probably find the friction loss up the return, but not sure about "from the sump"?


Higher flow in the tank is not at all a bad thing, however, since it is adjunctive, you oughta be upping the return flow as well.
As a newbie, I have to confess I'm still pretty confused about what actual return flow rate (ie turnover through the sump) I should be aiming for? Would 900gph be enough, allowing me to just going with 1" pipes, or should I aim for more and do 1" bulkheads to 1 1/2" pipes? Would 1500 gph be a good goal?

cheers

David
 
Thanks, too, uncleof6! Very helpful to increase my broad understanding...


By 'keeping up' I meant keeping the full siphon on with the larger bulkheads (but that may just reveal my ignorance ;) )

Is there anything you could point me to to calculate the dynamic head? I can probably find the friction loss up the return, but not sure about "from the sump"?

Friction loss charts. "From the sump," refers to friction loss on the pump intake side, which does affect the flow rate, every bit as much as on the ouput side of the pump.

As a newbie, I have to confess I'm still pretty confused about what actual return flow rate (ie turnover through the sump) I should be aiming for? Would 900gph be enough, allowing me to just going with 1" pipes, or should I aim for more and do 1" bulkheads to 1 1/2" pipes? Would 1500 gph be a good goal?

cheers

David

You are not alone...900 gph to the tank (after losses would be fine) that kinda sounds like a mag drive or eheim: do yourself a favor and pick up a better pump. 1500 gph, is a bit much, but then why not.... but you would need the 1.5" pipe on 1" bulkheads to get there...
 
In the process of planning a new tank (will be my first tank build, I am using a readymade nano at the moment), I am going to apply the original beananimal method with C2C internal L-shaped overflow. Since do not have any piece of experience with piping or overflows, there are a lot of questions.

Planned tank size (in centimeters); 90x70x55 with aimed water level of 50 cm. The return pump will be Jebao DC-6000. Return will pass straight through the "L".

1. Which pipe size? for 3 standpipes and 1 return, can they be equal ? Today I went to PVC store and bought a sample set involves all the parts on top of the valve, found in original beananimal design. It reads 1" (=32) on it. The next size was 40, almost equal to 1.5". For the given tank volume and pump, which one can be preferred. I understand that larger diameter will provide larger surface area for water flowing on the inner wall of the open channel standpipe. Should I go with 1.5" ? though not sure if 1.5" bulkheads exist.

2. Hole positions? how much space needed from top of DT glass and edges, or what the distance differences should be to the top, among 3 holes? (They should not be drilled on the same line, as far as I understand).

3. Overflow box size, in consideration with the answers given to above questions. I remember that I read somewhere in this forum, depth of overflow advised as deep as 7.5 inches, for 50 cm, it makes almost 1/3 of vertical distance (may be I misinterpret the writings). How much space you people reserve below the mouth of down-turned elbows?

4. Finally, what happens in internal "L", in time? Does it collect any dirt etc. at base? I am not planning to put any teeth, but plain, rounded glass for overflow edge.

I know answers exist somewhere in thread, but I after reading a few dozens of pages, my mind really mixed up, so I appreciate any comments.

Regards,
 
I think I understand how this setup works and plan to implement it. But I have a couple of questions. Bulkhead holes are drilled in bottom of tank inside internal overflow.

1) Bulkhead hole is already drilled for 1" bulkhead on the Open Channel line. Would it be advantageous to up the piping, tee, and elbow to 1 1/4" for more surface area on the pipe walls? Don't know if it'd be helpful since the bulkhead reduces the size to 1" so far down in the line.

2) For the caps on the Siphon and Open channels should I use teflon tape or the plumbers putty to prevent leaks. I've read mixed opinions on that.

3) Distances from the bottom of the weir slots. Thought an image would make it easier... Interested in what's recommended for the distance from the top of emergency channel(E) to bottom of weir(W). And distance from from bottom of el's on the siphon and open channels(SO) to the bottom of the weir slots(W).

weir.gif
 
I'm dry fitting my plumbing today and am wondering if this is going to work for my main siphon... I've had to use 45 degree elbows to get the main siphon to drain into the sump chamber. I'm concerned that due to the angle I won't be able to reach my 1000gph that I'm shooting for. I'm using an external pump (Reeflo snapper) with 1 inch bulkheads and 1.5 inch drains so this is the only logical option unless I want to have the siphon drain into the fuge chamber of my sump. Thoughts? Thanks.

 
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I'm dry fitting my plumbing today and am wondering if this is going to work for my main siphon... I've had to use 45 degree elbows to get the main siphon to drain into the sump chamber. I'm concerned that due to the angle I won't be able to reach my 1000gph that I'm shooting for. I'm using an external pump (Reeflo snapper) with 1 inch bulkheads and 1.5 inch drains so this is the only logical option unless I want to have the siphon drain into the fuge chamber of my sump. Thoughts? Thanks.


I think what you have will work just fine. I have 2 45's on mine with 1.25" pipe and hit 900gph comfortably.
 
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So here's an odd question.

Does the emergency pipe HAVE to go in the overflow box? I was thinking about putting it on the other end of the tank.
 
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