Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

BeanAnimal,
I've drilled my tank for the design you've outlined and I getting ready to plumb it and design my sump/refugium. I will be running the Reeflo Snapper pump for my return pump at about 1500 GPH after head loss. Now, on the design of the sump/refugium. I was thinking that I would have a DSB in the refugium, so I will not want all of this flow through the refugium. So, my thought is for the siphon standpipe to drain directly into the skimmer section and then the open channel standpipe to drain into the refugium to give it a low flow. Do you think that I am on the right track? One concern I do have is on startup will the durso line gurgle a good bit and disturb the refugium. Is this a real concern? Also, does the siphon standpipe have to be straight or can it have elbows in it to go under the tank? I know that I really want to keep the open channel standpipe as straight as possible to keep down on the noise, but I'm thinking that I can have the siphon standpipe elbowed as long as it doesn't break siphon. Thanks in advance for everything BeanAnimal!
 
I won't step on BeanAnimal's toes regarding the actual function of the various components of this drain system being setup as you described. I will however address the actual sump design, and how I would plumb it, related to BeanAnimal's design. The discussion of the details concerning the why, therefore, and thou arts of it, are out of the scope of this thread, as to the relative merits of using a RDSB in a sump, setup, flow rates, and flow logic for it, though I am certain a discussion of these things could become quite lively.

Untitled-8.jpg


Regards,

Jim
 
Actually, you can now disregard the question on the use of the open standpipe for my refugium. After drawing things out of on paper, I realize that it would not work quietly because the refugium is going to be in the front of my sump. Thanks anyway.
 
Actually, you can now disregard the question on the use of the open standpipe for my refugium. After drawing things out of on paper, I realize that it would not work quietly because the refugium is going to be in the front of my sump. Thanks anyway.


Well I did not spend any time on it, it was done some time ago...... If I had: :fun2:

Jim
 
Dude, you don't have to be like that. I was just asking some simple questions to BeanAnimal.

Don't be so sensitive, I was kidding..... if I am serious about something I generally do at least a half page on why. And I won't use a smiley. ;)

Jim
 
Ok, I was just misunderstanding you then. That is one thing I hate about texting, you really can't always tell if the other person is serious or playing around. No biggie man. Thanks again! ;-)
 
Yeah, after I was drawing everything out yesterday evening, I will more than like have to do what you have done in your diagram. I really wanted to be able to use some of the water coming straight from the overflow to the refugium, but I don't think it's going to be possible. Have you or are you going to use that many gate valves? I've heard that they usually leak after a while of use is why I ask.
 
Yeah, after I was drawing everything out yesterday evening, I will more than like have to do what you have done in your diagram. I really wanted to be able to use some of the water coming straight from the overflow to the refugium, but I don't think it's going to be possible. Have you or are you going to use that many gate valves? I've heard that they usually leak after a while of use is why I ask.

I don't use a gate between the pump and sump. Just have not scaled a ball valve yet. I hear that about gate valves also, but have not found any basis for the claims yet. Then, I don't use "inexpensive" gate valves either.

Jim
 
bean,

i contacted you via email.

i am planning a very shallow frag tank. i am getting close to the final dimensions, something like 48x18x7 (outside dimensions).

I am still deciding on the height but i think 7 inch -3/4 inch gives me a 6.25 inch water level.

anyways, my overflow will be a false wall that is 48x6.25 inches. The depth(front to back) will be 4". That means i will have an overflow compartment of 48x4x6.25 and a display area that is 48x14x6.25(water level, glass will go to 7" but i want to be able to work in my rimless tank haha).

My question comes in regarding the herbie/your silent overflow method. I want silence in my bedroom. :lolspin:

anyways, i was thinking of using 1" bulkheads and 1" drains. my return wil be 3/4". I am looking for somewhere between 200-300gph turnover, but probably on the lowerend of that figure.

of the whole 6.25 inches i have, where should the bulkheads be drilled (the height of the center of the hole i need to drill)?. Should they be positioned closer to the top or closer to the bottom. I obviously don't have much wiggle room as there is the glass edge drilling rule that i must follow.

my final hole count should be 4, correct? 3 drains and 1 return.

should i just tell my tank builder to center them vertically in the space i have?
 
I don't use a gate between the pump and sump. Just have not scaled a ball valve yet. I hear that about gate valves also, but have not found any basis for the claims yet. Then, I don't use "inexpensive" gate valves either.

Jim

All of the gate valves I ordered from AquaticEco leak at the stems after a year of infrequent use. I have nopt take the time to tear one apart and look at it or atry to fix it.
 
All of the gate valves I ordered from AquaticEco leak at the stems after a year of infrequent use. I have nopt take the time to tear one apart and look at it or atry to fix it.

I have not taken a sch 40 kbi gate apart either, but I think you will find that the o-rings have deteriorated due to salt water. The wedges are polypropylene, the o-rings are epdm

Sch 80 kbi gates, can be had with either epdm or viton o-rings. I think you would find that the viton o-rings have a more acceptable life span.

"I have not found any basis for the claims, yet," is perhaps a bit vague, and perhaps misleading. But I also qualified it. Sch 80 gate valves with viton seals are not 'inexpensive,' and I have not used Sch 40 gates. The implied message was that 'you get what you pay for'

Valves don't last forever, and if a valve can be dissasembled, it needs to be serviced periodically, 6 mos a year whatever. If it does not dissasemble, then it is a throw away, and I would not expect much service value. i have a pic of a spears TU ball valve floating around-- completely dissasembled....

I was told early on as a noob, to use sch 80 valves and unions, because they had better seals... this is not always the case however. It seems the word 'viton' has been lost somewhere. :)

http://www.kbico.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_40&products_id=568

http://www.bigbrandwater.com/gatevalve15.html

Jim
 
Bean, i have a few questions.

Can the open channel and emergency drains be combined into one pipe? My sump is in my basement and a few rooms over so the less piping/connections the better.

The adjustment valve for the siphon branch. Can this be located just below the tank and maintain the silence with a long run of piping after it down to the basement? Or does the valve have to be located closer to the sump?

And lastly, if im only planning on 1200gph max of return can I get away with using a 1" thin wall or 1 1/4" pipe for runs to the sump?
 
I was told early on as a noob, to use sch 80 valves and unions, because they had better seals... this is not always the case however. It seems the word 'viton' has been lost somewhere. :)



Jim

You are correct. In this hobby many things are just not true, and this is one of them, in fact using sched 80 valves is also throwing all flow numbers out of the window due to the reduction in the bore, some as much as 20%.
 
sayn3ver;15990818i was thinking of using 1" bulkheads and 1" drains. my return wil be 3/4". I am looking for somewhere between 200-300gph turnover said:
4 holes if you want the return to come through the back of the tank as well. You could also take the return overt the top and use an Oceans Motions "squirt" to create a 2 or 4 port wave maker as the return.

Yes, you could put the bulkheads in a vertical alignment. Siphon on the bottom, open channel in the middle and emergency on the top. I don't have time to draw it out in CAD right now but could may be able to in the n ext 24 hours.
 
You are correct. In this hobby many things are just not true, and this is one of them, in fact using sched 80 valves is also throwing all flow numbers out of the window due to the reduction in the bore, some as much as 20%.

Which leads us right back to another debate I seem to recall, up sizing a notch to compensate for the reduced bore size.

Jim
 
Can the open channel and emergency drains be combined into one pipe?
Short answer, no... Long answer maybe to yes, but thing can get complicated. The size of the combined section is very critical as, it will NOT be under a fill siphon but will have to be able to to carry the full flow of the return pump without being under siphon. If you think about it, you will understand why faster than I can type an explanation :)

My sump is in my basement and a few rooms over so the less piping/connections the better.
That presents it own set of problems for silent operation of the open channel... I.E. it makes it very hard to create a silent open channel that does not drop nearly staight down. You may be looking at a staight herbie with two dry emergency standpipes and hope it does not have to be fiddled with a lot.

The adjustment valve for the siphon branch. Can this be located just below the tank and maintain the silence with a long run of piping after it down to the basement?
The answer is pretty complicated, but it depends on the drop, pipe length and flow. It would be best to have it at the end of the run in your situation.

And lastly, if im only planning on 1200gph max of return can I get away with using a 1" thin wall or 1 1/4" pipe for runs to the sump?
Again, with your setup, it will be hard to tell. I would venture to say that you may have trouble with noise in the open channel. That much drop on a 1" siphon will help the flow, but the long horizontal will cause friction and turbulance. I use 1" thinwall for a lot of stuff, but don't think it is the right size for this project.
 
Back
Top