Poo? Really. POO?! Where did this theory start? I'm calling Shenanigans!

[Big E]

That's fine & good that the corals ate live shrimp, but that's a nautural food which I'm not referring to. The commercial foods that are nothing but secret ammino acid or other foods are just N&P producers.

If you want to be specific as Gary seems to want, than all that study does is tell you, that specific species of tenuis & favia ate shrimp.

 

[ousnakebyte]

My issue was with this statement, "the coral foods that are commercially available aren't feeding SPS corals..."

Newly-hatched brine is not a natural food source for sps corals - and neither are frozen rotifers. However, these are commercially available and they absolutely do feed corals and enhance/promote growth.

For me, saying that other commercial foods are not taken by corals is going to require evidence. And, some may very well not be accepted by sps corals. But, it is a blanket statement that requires proof. Again, I'm off topic - sorry...

Cheers
Mike

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

We've become so efficient at reducing nutrients that SPS corals now starve as a result & coral "foods" have become popular. Some peiople prefer to add more fish to serve the same end result.

being efficient at reducing nutrients can be a very good thing. It allows you to feed your corals "good" foods.

Loading the aquarium up with heavy poopers such as large Tangs isn't the answer to coloring up corals. Control of N and P by limiting/exporting coupled with feeding corals the proper food is the answer to coloring up most SPS.

If fish poo was the answer to coloring up/feeding corals we'd all be rushing out to load our SPS aquariums with fishes. Such isn't the case. Fish poo makes it more difficult to maintain colorfaul and healthy corals.

 

[Akrite]

I think you taking it too literal. You can't have one without the other. fish can't poo if you don't feed them. Too many people starve their tanks and fish to get the ultra low nutrients to keep low PO4 and PO3. If your fish are starving then so are your corals. So now the trend is moving to more poo which means for feeding and better exporting of waste so more skimming and carbon dosing and GFO.

I haven't read the whole thread yet so if I'm repeating what someone else said forgive me.

 

[MammothReefer]

You can have one w/out the other you don't need fish to have a healthy SPS tank.

 

[Alex T.]

As in everything else in nature, there needs to be balance. While I agree with Gary on some points, on some we differ.

For instance, I've tried some of the many commercialized "coral" foods and now refuse to use them. After dosing half the recommended amount with half the amount of days per week, my skimmer literally shut down from the oils in these foods and stopped producing. Within one month my SPS started to brown, hair algae began while maintenance and husbandry remained the same. After a few more months of eliminating these foods I was back to good polyp extension, low nutrients, hair algae recession and return of coral color.

I for one would much rather have more fish than expensive additives. Correct me if I'm wrong but if your fish have a solid nutritious diet high in some proteins then their waste will emit the same into the water column. The building blocks of protein are amino acids. We're being semantic about fish poop here. Of course they don't eat the poop. But the byproduct available in the water column is definitely being consumed by corals at any given rate. I believe in skimming heavy, feeding heavy and doing large water changes. Just because you have large pooping fish like tangs does not mean you can't have a beautiful reef. Mark Polleti (sp?) has some of the most amazing sps colors I've ever seen in a reef tank. He admits to feeding his fish heavily and keeps nitrates between 5 & 10 ppm. You can either keep nutrients in the water column always available for your sps, or choose to starve your sps and fish while dosing it back with amino acids and reef foods. Nutrients are nutrients. Cow Manure, Horse Manure, Pig Manure, and miracle grow all achieve the same result in your garden. The fact that you physically see your corals' polyps taking in food would make me wonder what you're really seeing. When I touch my sps they retract their polyps as well. Did I just feed them? For all we know they are simply reacting with defense to the junk that was just poured in the water and will wait until it's diluted to take up its' nutrients as they break down.

On wild reefs the amount of zooplankton and phytoplankton available to corals throughout the day would crash our tanks in a comparably scaled down dosage. So, in theory these aren't very effective at stimulating the response of growth and color we enjoy. In fact, if you look back at tanks from the late 90's and early 2000's you'll note many SPS keepers had mostly browned out corals and a hint of green on their glass from feeding phytoplankton. I even remember a former TOTM winner's thread showing pictures of how phytoplankton was grown and dosed to the tank throughout the day. None of those tanks can compare to the colors we see today. Technology has not advanced that far since then, but what you tend to see is a good amount of fish being fed well with exceptional hubandry practices. Carbon dosing allows for your fish to be fed well while your corals take up the byproduct. However, since i started dosing vodka again I don't use it as a low nutrient device. I prefer to feed until the dosage allows for 1 or 2 ppm nitrate and leave it there.

Since dosing all these additives can fowl your system quickly, my observations tell me that feeding your fish well, letting them produce waste for corals, and getting as much of it out as you can during a water change is the way to go while always leaving a good amount of measurable nitrates in the water. I think we would be better guided toward worrying about changing our RODI filters on time and staying on top of water changes than scarcely measuring the food we feed our fish so that we can dump Oyster Eggs, Roti Feast, Amino Acids and whatever else comes down the pike.

Just my .02

 

[laud]

I realize that I'm taking the term "poo" literally but that's what this thread is all about- specific information.

Why?

Because uninformed reefkeepers reading internet threads take things literally. Internet reefkeepers keep posting they feed their SPS fish poo. Poo is solid waste matter. SPS don't eat it.

Let's be specific, folks!

You want to make growing/coloring up Acropora more difficult?
Load your reef aquarium up with big fish that poop a lot.

Better yet, load up your reef aquarium with big fish that poop a lot and have a poor circulation/filtration system.

Of course, such a system might be PERFECT for growing Xenia.
But that's not what this thread is all about, is it?

Lots not go off on tangents.

First off, you have a beautiful reef. You also have nice large pooping fish.
Organic material is organic material. Whether it is poop, oyster eggs, zooplankton, wood, wine or monkey brains. Lobster eat poo, I don't eat poo and yet I eat lobsters.

Just to note, I do NOT feed my corals poo. I do everything I can to remove as much as I can. With that being said, I would rather have some poop in my coral water than to have a sterile environment. The latter would be worse, IMO (and that opinion has no credentials).

 

[laud]

And besides, I don't think ANYONE is saying replace rich clean fresh saltwater with poo.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

And besides, I don't think ANYONE is saying replace rich clean fresh saltwater with poo.

agreed.
What this thread is saying is poo doesn't color up your corals.

Feed corals appropriate foods. Limit and export poo ASAP. Poo = PO4

 

[ousnakebyte]

The fact that you physically see your corals' polyps taking in food would make me wonder what you're really seeing. When I touch my sps they retract their polyps as well. Did I just feed them? For all we know they are simply reacting with defense to the junk that was just poured in the water and will wait until it's diluted to take up its' nutrients as they break down.

When you touch your coral, you are generating a defensive reaction - the polyps of the whole colony, or nearly whole colony, retract almost in unison.

A coral feeding in the water column will have various polyps almost "gripping or grabbing" particulates out of the water, in a random assortment. And, usually, when, let's say a baby brine shrimp hits a tentacle, that tentacle will retract, followed by other tentacles of the same polyp - similar to what it would look like if you were to fold down your fingers one after the other when making a fist.

Now, if you tried to target feed a coral and blasted it with the turkey baster, then... yeah... you'll see a defensive reaction too....

In that study posted above, Dirk also fed one of his experimental tanks Nori Micro (some invert food found in Europe, I guess - I've never used it) and the other experimental tanks received a species of phytoplankton. And, obviously, the controls received nothing.

The A. tenuis in the tanks with the artemia (baby brine) all had significantly increased growth rates compared to the Nori micro, phytoplankton and controls.

Your sps coral are carnivorous. Don't feed them poo, don't wait for them to take it up across their membranes, or whatever. Maintain good water quality and feed them appropriate foods, along with your fish.

Cheers
Mike

 

[rogerwilco357]

I read the same article

I read the same article

I once read it is because fish are very ineffiecient at digestion. There digrestion systems can only harness roughly %25 of the foods nutrition.....leaving some fairly high nutrient particles in small sizes for corals....when its poopin time.

Yeah and in the natural reef that is why the corals do so well they have 100's of fish poo'ing all day and since they don't digest all of the food alot gets carried over to the corals as the polyps catch it and use it . think it was the coral magazine I read it in will look it up..good catch.

 

[SDguy]

I remember the whole fish poo SPS thing being associated with barebottom tanks and too pale colors. Not sure when it morphed into SPS actually eat poo directly

 

[MammothReefer]

Ya the message has definitely gotten mixed up. On every single "colour/growth" thread somebody always responds with "fish poo". Which is almost a daily occurrence.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I remember the whole fish poo SPS thing being associated with barebottom tanks and too pale colors. Not sure when it morphed into SPS actually eat poo directly

not necessarily barebottom reef aquariums but ultra low nutrient systems, Peter. Less isn't always better. Some folks took the "ultra low" concept too far. Phosphorous is a building block of life! It doesn't take much experimentation to see that low range nitrates can improve coral coloration. Absolute zero is to be avoided.

Ya the message has definitely gotten mixed up. On every single "colour/growth" thread somebody always responds with "fish poo". Which is almost a daily occurrence.

exactly- and the message isn't an accurate one.

 

[StarF]

It has always ben my view that if you strip the water colum for everything, your sps will go pale and color would fade, if you run Zeovit or any of the other system designed to export waste fast, you will realise there are 2 ways if getting color.

1: buy those darn expensive "coral foods"
2: more fish / feed more..

in my experience with both vsv, zeovit and a normal sulfate filter it dosent mater, how you add the "food".. the better you can keep your water chemeistry while adding food to corals the better.. the coral dosent care if the n/p is from a fish poop or a expensive "coral food" bottle.. I know the big names in this hobby would like to get you to think that their expensive magic coral food, is the secret behind everything. But it isent. But in the end you should do, as you feel gives the best results for you.. to me that means: heavy skimming, vsv + feeding everyday.. po4 = 0, and a no3 on about 0,5 to 1... its also a lot easier running that system, than those 0/0 tanks where everything is on the edge...

 

[dzhuo]

I remember seeing an article a while back where study has shown the size of zooplankton SPS are capable of ingesting and eat. The study also reveal SPS are only able to capture food within a certain velocity hitting them. Does anyone know a link to that article? Or remember what the micron size of zooplankton SPS can capture?

For those who said they had bad experience with commercial SPS food, can you name the ones you have tried?

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

.. coral dosent care if the n/p is from a fish poop or a expensive "coral food" bottle.. ...

"care"? Perhaps a language translation snafu?

Well, if you want to put it that way I guess my corals don't "care" to eat poop but I've seen them eat coral food and fish food.
I get my foods pretty cheap.

I spend a significant amount of money trying to keep my reef aquarium "poop free".

 

[dzhuo]

I remember seeing an article a while back where study has shown the size of zooplankton SPS are capable of ingesting and eat. The study also reveal SPS are only able to capture food within a certain velocity hitting them. Does anyone know a link to that article? Or remember what the micron size of zooplankton SPS can capture?

For those who said they had bad experience with commercial SPS food, can you name the ones you have tried?

This isn't the original article I had in mind but it answered all of my questions: How corals feed

 

[samuelkl]

gary, we understand your point, fish poop does not DIRECTLY feed sps coral or increase coloration. but, as others have stated, INDIRECTLY it might help in the overall circle of life in your closed system aquarium.

lets not keep arguing the same point. i understand you have an almost single-minded directive to educated reef-noobs about the harmful effects of fish turd but you dont need to keep talking to everyone in a condescending manner. thanks

 

[SPSEMPIRE]

This isn't the original article I had in mind but it answered all of my questions: How corals feed

wow, what a great article. Took some time to get though but very informative.