Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

Been a lot of questions asked concerning it, however, have yet to see a functioning example. Theoretically, it can be done, and work. I suspect part of the problem is fitting a 1" siphon, and a 1.25" open channel in the same small corner overflow.
 
uncleof6 said:
That does not surprise me on being almost full open, opening it all the way will not help much. The mag 12 needs a minimum of 1.5" inside diameter pipe, (per danner instructions) to get any flow out of it. Additionally, the tee in your return line is acting as a brick wall. Plus you are bleeding flow for the fuge as well.
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Actually, after looking at it this evening, it's only about 1/2 open.

I did have this exact same return plumbing on my 50g, Mag 12 feeding the fuge and reactors and it was only 3/4 open going through 3/4" pipe. Didn't get any noise like I do with the new Mag12.

The noise in the drain pipe has somewhat settled down though (without doing anything), and only occurs every now and then.

You also previously mentioned the siphon picking up after a power outage (simulated of course). It does take about 5 minutes to catch it. I've adjusted the pipe depth/s to be perfect at 1" under the surface with the secondary at 3/4" below the surface so that the siphon will pick it up first.

Being so late now, i'll try the pump tomorrow.
 
lhemphill said:
Wouldn't that be an invitation for snails and fish? Feel free to correct me if im wrong.
Click to expand...


No it isn't an open invitation. If a fish or snail wants in the over flow, they are going to go in the overflow, the thin water layer over the weir, is not that inviting to fish, and a snail will just go up and over anyway.
 
I don't know that I have seen pictures. It is pretty much the same as the first drawing, but the pipes exit the bottom of the tank rather than an outside box.

[EDIT] Oops posted before reading this page
 
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The Mag12: Opened the valve all the way and it just gets louder. It seems that the more pressure the pump has to push against, the quieter it is. (If I had the recommended 1.5" pipe I could only imagine what this would sound like).

If I restrict the flow going back to the tank (not the supply to the pump), I can make the pump run dead silent.

As for the drains, I still get the little "pop" noise at the Gate Valve every now and then. I took the entire pipe off the tank, took it to work and pressure tested it and it holds a vacuum without issue. So, now I am assuming there is some sort of cavitation in the valve that is causing the noise, and not letting the air get past the gate.

My next move is to make a new pipe, with the gate valve low and facing downwards so as to flood the valve area.
 
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Besides, sanitary Tees reduces the resistance according to normal Tees and elbows.

Bean upload a drawing using elbows instead of T's . It must be somewhere in the page 40 or around. Poor guy received the same question so many times... :)
 
So, the tank I have is the tank I will be using. I can't redrill (tempured)return (freebie), exchange, etc. so I have to come up with a solution. I have a 120 Deep Blue RR with bottom drilled corner overflows. Each corner has a 1.75" drilled hole (1 " ID w/ BH) and a 1.5" drilled hole (0.75" ID w/ BH) for a total of 2 - 1" ID and 2 - 0.75" ID connections. Each corner overflow is an 11 1/2" curve for a total of 23" of overflow.

I would like to turn this tank over as close to 10X/hour as possible. I am not overly concerned with drain noise but am concerned with failsafe and maximizing flow. I have a 40 gallon sump.

Right now what I'm considering doing is going with a a modification to the Bean Animal drain set up as follows:

1 3/4" full siphon stand pipe in left corner
1 1" emergency standpipe in left corner

1 1" open channel stand pipe in right corner
1 3/4" emergency standpipe in right corner

plumbing a mag 12 w/ 1.5" return line externally on the back of the tank. Vertically I'm looking at right at 5', one union and a valve (gate?). Not exactly sure about the top of the return, probably as simple as possible to avoid more head loss.

The reason I want the open channel opposite the full siphon is so that I can get some flow in both overflows.

Please let me know what you think, I'm open to suggestions (other than the ones I excluded in the first sentence!)

Edit to add, if there are higher flow/return solutions that also have failsafes in place I would like to hear them......remember, noise is not much of a concern. For example, 2 0.75" siphons, 1 1" open chanel and 1 1" emergency - would that be more flow (certainly), would it work (I don't know).

FYI - I posted the same thing with a new heading on the "New To" forum but realized this might be the better place.
 
i have a question on the beananimal return - if it is built properly how much water will flow thru the secondary inlet, the primary will be full siphon and the emergency will be used to take up whats needed if the primary and secondary fail - i understand the system but am un sure of the flow in the secondary pipe in normal operation - my thought for the secondary if it had enough flow, was to use it to supply an algae scrubber rather then add another pump into the fuge and take up real estate
 
Summey said:
So, the tank I have is the tank I will be using. I can't redrill (tempured)return (freebie), exchange, etc. so I have to come up with a solution. I have a 120 Deep Blue RR with bottom drilled corner overflows. Each corner has a 1.75" drilled hole (1 " ID w/ BH) and a 1.5" drilled hole (0.75" ID w/ BH) for a total of 2 - 1" ID and 2 - 0.75" ID connections. Each corner overflow is an 11 1/2" curve for a total of 23" of overflow.

I would like to turn this tank over as close to 10X/hour as possible. I am not overly concerned with drain noise but am concerned with failsafe and maximizing flow. I have a 40 gallon sump.

Right now what I'm considering doing is going with a a modification to the Bean Animal drain set up as follows:

1 3/4" full siphon stand pipe in left corner
1 1" emergency standpipe in left corner

1 1" open channel stand pipe in right corner
1 3/4" emergency standpipe in right corner

plumbing a mag 12 w/ 1.5" return line externally on the back of the tank. Vertically I'm looking at right at 5', one union and a valve (gate?). Not exactly sure about the top of the return, probably as simple as possible to avoid more head loss.

The reason I want the open channel opposite the full siphon is so that I can get some flow in both overflows.

Please let me know what you think, I'm open to suggestions (other than the ones I excluded in the first sentence!)

Edit to add, if there are higher flow/return solutions that also have failsafes in place I would like to hear them......remember, noise is not much of a concern. For example, 2 0.75" siphons, 1 1" open chanel and 1 1" emergency - would that be more flow (certainly), would it work (I don't know).
Click to expand...

Saw this in New to the Hobby, will address here....as well.

NO. :) The siphon and the open channel MUST be in the same overflow. If they are not, it will be impossible to adjust the system--since the flow through the open channel is controlled by the water level in the overflow, which is controlled by a valve in the siphon line. Using this drain system in two overflows requires that one overflow not have any flow under normal conditions.

You cannot safely run 2 1" siphons and an open channel, with a 1" dry emergency. The idea is redundancy for safety, not for double the flow capacity that your emergency can handle. This is a design criteria: Eliminate all possible problems, no matter how remote, when possible. ;)

Overflow 1: 1" siphon line on .75" bulkhead.
1.25" open channel on 1" bulkhead.

Overflow 2: 1" dry emergency on 1" bulkhead.
3/4" bulkhead not used for the drain system.

Fill the second overflow with fine oolitic sand, with a few inches of water over it, mini DSB.

Subject to the limitations of the single overflow itself, this will handle 1500 gph well. 1200 will be easy for it, and it will be silent, again the limiting factor is the overflow "weir" itself. Therein lies a small issue of needing ~18" of length for 1200 gph--without teeth.
 
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uncleof6 said:
Saw this in New to the Hobby, will address here....as well.

NO. :) The siphon and the open channel MUST be in the same overflow. If they are not, it will be impossible to adjust the system--since the flow through the open channel is controlled by the water level in the overflow, which is controlled by a valve in the siphon line. Using this drain system in two overflows requires that one overflow not have any flow under normal conditions.

Too darn obvious!

You cannot safely run 2 1" siphons and an open channel, with a 1" dry emergency. The idea is redundancy for safety, not for double the flow capacity that your emergency can handle. This is a design criteria: Eliminate all possible problems, no matter how remote, when possible. ;)

Overflow 1: 1" siphon line on .75" bulkhead.
1.25" open channel on 1" bulkhead.

Overflow 2: 1" dry emergency on 1" bulkhead.
3/4" bulkhead not used for the drain system. I assume I could plug this but there wouldn't be any harm in letting it be a "dry" emergency too, no?
Fill the second overflow with fine oolitic sand, with a few inches of water over it, mini DSB. Really worth doing in you opinion?

Subject to the limitations of the single overflow itself, this will handle 1500 gph well. 1200 will be easy for it, and it will be silent, again the limiting factor is the overflow "weir" itself. Therein lies a small issue of needing ~18" of length for 1200 gph--without teeth.
Click to expand...
I'm not up to speed on the weir lenght requirements, but I don't think I can get 1200 GPH with a mag 12 anyway (headloss)....so what GPH w/ my head loss should I be shooting for? Seems like I need more than a mag 12?



And thank you for responding!! FYI, just to be even more difficult, I asked different follow up questions in the other thread.....:beer:
 
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active:

It depends on the setup, but somewhere between 10%-20% of the flow.... When adjusting the system you will see the obvious "wide" sweet spot. Too much flow and air begins to become a problem... too little and you may end up sucking air in the siphon.
 
Summey said:
I'm not up to speed on the weir lenght requirements, but I don't think I can get 1200 GPH with a mag 12 anyway (headloss)....so what GPH w/ my head loss should I be shooting for? Seems like I need more than a mag 12?

Most likely not. You mentioned 10x, that would be around 1200 gph-- after you add a sump, etc. I am beginning not too like the mags. Leaning toward Sicce, guess you could run a Reeflo, and really get going....... The weir lengths are approx based on the calculator.

As far as the sand in the overflow, if water is moving over it, you will get "some" denitrification out of it. When bean first mentioned it some time ago, I went HUH? But it makes sense. Just a tiny bucket DSB.



And thank you for responding!! FYI, just to be even more difficult, I asked different follow up questions in the other thread.....:beer:
Click to expand...

Figures...... ;)
 
I am planning on running a barracuda return on my 500 gallon fish only. I will be pushing about 3000 gallons/ hr, give or take. Will 3x 1 1/2" drains work , or do I have to use 3x 2"? Thanks in advance!
 
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