Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[uncleof6]

QUESTIONS ABOUT MY SETUP. PLEASE HELP:

I know mine is a little different, but my fishroom is on the other side of the wall so I didn't have a choice.
Would like to get some thoughts on why it doesn't seem to be flowing as much as I would like. Some of you weighed in on bits and pieces earlier, but now that I've had some time with the system I have a pretty good idea of how it's working and can explain it all a bit clearer so we can try to work it out and get it performing as good as possible.

Basically, I plumbed my tank using the BeanAnimal setup but I did three things differently. For one, I ran straight through the wall before going into the sanitary tee and ball valve. This means there is about 8 extra inches of horizontal run that BeanAnimal doesn't normally have, straight out of the internal C2C overflow. Second, even after that, I don't have much straight vertical drop. I have just a little before going horizontal again and then some low slopes to the sump. And third, the drain pipes are 1" instead of 1.5". I don't normally like a lot of flow through my sump, typically keeping it at around 4-5x and that's probably where I am now. Thought I would save a few bucks on plumbing. But I feel like I should still be getting a lot more with this style setup. So I'm about to do what I should have done in the first place and redo all the drain plumbing with 1.5" the way the BeanAnimal was originally designed. I'll still have the horizontal runs and low slopes but I'm wondering if the larger diameter will make a difference? The main siphon drain does seem to be running as a siphon (no air), but if you put your hand under it in the sump it doesn't feel like that much more than the open channel that's letting air in. The difference I can feel on my hand is mostly the difference of the air bubbles coming out of the open channel pipe, verse the solid feeling column of water coming out of the siphon pipe. I would think it should be a much more noticeable difference? If you go back inside to the tank and plug the airline, that open channel does start flowing a lot more water and the level of water in the overflow drops. So I figure it's safe to assume that the main drain is purging the air from the lines and running as a siphon. But my startup seems different than everyone else's. When i start the pump, my overflow fills up and immediately goes right to it's normal working level. Everyone else's from what I heard has a few minutes of water running at a higher level, draining down the emergency drain, before the air purges from the main drain and starts flowing full siphon and drops back down. Mine doesn't do that at all.

I've read over Bean's website a thousand times, and from what I can tell everything else is set up the same. My drains end about an inch or two under the water surface of the sump. Any thing else you can think of? Do you think the size of the plumbing is the issue or something else? The system functions as it should with the emergency drains and all that, and it's flowing enough for what I need. I just expected A LOT more flow so I'd like to make any adjustments I can to maximize it, even if it still doesn't reach the proportions of the original design.

Pic below to give you an idea of what it looks like.

TIA!

Well the first thing with flow in an aquarium is: if you don't put it in, it won't come out. Hence, that flow coming out your drains, is what you are putting in the tank. If they are equal (between the siphon and open channel) then the system is not adjusted properly. If the total output of both together is unsatisfactory, that is not the drain systems fault. It is the return plumbing's fault. The first thing I thought when I looked at this back a while, was friction loss city--hence it is most likely under pumped.

At the low end, a 1" siphon, should flow better than 1500 gph without any problems at all-----

Although, your system looks good, there are numerous deviations from the original design. Horizontal runs are a big modification, and should be causing you some starting issues, which could explain why the system is running out of adjustment. Where it my system, I would be cutting that shelf out, and moving the sump over under the drains, dropping them straight--and straightening out the return line. I think your performance would improve considerably.

 

[uncleof6]

bean i need some help here with this
here is the problem i am having right now. i have set up the fail safe system !
1" bulk heads to 1 1/2" down pipes on a 75gl tank but what gph pump would be best with this system ?
because i know right now i have it closed down with almost 850 gph and i realy want to get the most out of the system and cut down on my power heads

To start with you cannot replace power heads with return flow, and you cannot replace return flow with power heads. This point seems to be a very hard one to get across.

As far as your setup is concerned how high do you want to go? 2500 gph? That would not be an unreasonable expectation with this setup. On the other hand, that would be rather absurd in a 75 gallon tank, would in not?

My advice to you would be "if it is not broke, don't fix it." It is not broken, so don't fix it.

 

[d2mini]

Well the first thing with flow in an aquarium is: if you don't put it in, it won't come out. Hence, that flow coming out your drains, is what you are putting in the tank. If they are equal (between the siphon and open channel) then the system is not adjusted properly. If the total output of both together is unsatisfactory, that is not the drain systems fault. It is the return plumbing's fault. The first thing I thought when I looked at this back a while, was friction loss city--hence it is most likely under pumped.

The return pump is a reeflo barracuda gold turned down to less than half it's max output because the drain won't flow enough. The return plumbing isn't the problem here, it's the drains. I was going to replace the pump with something smaller but want to maximize the drains first and see if I can keep it.

 

[uncleof6]

The return pump is a reeflo barracuda gold turned down to less than half it's max output because the drain won't flow enough. The return plumbing isn't the problem here, it's the drains. I was going to replace the pump with something smaller but want to maximize the drains first and see if I can keep it.

OOPS Open mouth insert foot--is good for me. I stand tagged hard.

However, things that still stand are the 1" siphon should be able to handle 1500 gph with out coughing. If you cannot get that, your system has a bottleneck in it. I am not going to try and guess where the bottle neck is, don't feel like eating my foot again. If you are looking for more than that, then yes, you should open up the plumbing size.

The second is the way the plumbing is configured could cause you some problems. Adjustment, and the siphon may not be kicking in fully. One of the first things I would do is reconfigure that system and eliminate all the horizontal runs. This is a gravity system. Horizontal runs give you no gravity advantage, and they can trap air, and prevent the siphon from fully forming. This will reduce the flow capacity of the drain. Reconfigure includes moving the sump to a more advantageous location,in terms of the drains. It may be inconvenient--but function comes first.

This system works well as designed. (see bean's original design.) The place to start, when trouble shooting a problem, is how much did you change the design. Balanced (or close to it) flow between the open channel and siphon is a problem. (not adjusting correctly) I would expect to see starting issues, with your configuration. And on the surface, from what you say, there is, but it is masked by the adjustment. There should be a very noticeable difference in flow between the siphon and open channel. The only noticeable explanation is the configuration.

 

[d2mini]

haha, no problem. But I definitely have the return flow taken care of. :thumbsup: I should have described the return above but was focused on the drains.

and prevent the siphon from fully forming.

This is exactly what I was thinking.... is it possible to have a "partial" siphon? Because that's how it feels to me. I'll see what I can do. I know that at the very least I can replace the horizontal runs (after the valves) with gentle slopes and replace the 90's with 45's. Maybe I should even replace some of the hard pipe with flex pipe? I can also drop the height of the sump about 8" (one less cinder block) but had it at waist height for safety reasons... toddler in the house.

Bean's flow calculator ( http://www.beananimal.com/media/6840/flowcalc.swf ) says that 1" pipe with only a 12" head height (this is the length of my only true vertical drop until you get to the sump) should get me about 1100 gph and that's probably close to what I'm getting... somewhere around 1000. The calculator says that by increasing the diameter to 1.5" I can get as much as 2600 gph. If I could get anywhere near 2000 that would be awesome.

Originally I thought that once a siphon was started, it was started and that was it. A siphon is a siphon. Like when doing water changes with a piece of flexible hose. But I guess not!

Thanks!

 

[shizno]

Drilled my 3 holes today in my 75g, think i drilled them a liiiiittle too low (almost 5 inches from the rim), this won't hurt anything right? just means my overflow box will be deeper and if theres a leak it would drain a bit (a lot) more water into the sump?

 

[jdcook72]

It will lower the water line in your display tank as it won't be higher than the top of the overflow box. If by leak you are referring to in the overflow box, then water will drain to the bottom of the lowest hole in the overflow box. In the situation where only the return pump fails the drain down to the sump should be the same wherever you put the box as water level will match the box location.

 

[uncleof6]

Drilled my 3 holes today in my 75g, think i drilled them a liiiiittle too low (almost 5 inches from the rim), this won't hurt anything right? just means my overflow box will be deeper and if theres a leak it would drain a bit (a lot) more water into the sump?

What size holes? Is that five inches to the center of the hole? Or five inches to the edge of the holes?

In any case, if they are "too low," yes the box will have to be taller (up to the bottom of the trim on the outside (1" down from the edge of the glass) hiding the water line. However, because of the way the system is adjusted, it will not increase your drain down. It will be the same as it would be with the holes higher. What does increase is the length of the drop from the top of the weir, to the box water level. This could frustrate your efforts for silence. Having a very long weir, hence a thin layer of water going over the weir, will help greatly with this issue.

 

[shizno]

5" to the center of the deepest hole (full siphon one)

I was going to coast to coast it so it would be a 48" long weir, I drilled them all on one side so I -could- patch them or put on capped bulkheads and redrill the other side with a smaller overflow...I was just sooo worried that the glass would shatter drilling them closer to the top

Edit: would a -slight- angle in conjunction with the long weir likely make up for that larger drop?

 

[shizno]

or perhaps turn up the elbows on all 3 drains (since i have the siphon one slightly lower anyway, and use some sort of cage to keep large stuff out) and run with it that way to ensure the water levels a bit higher in the overflow?

 

[uncleof6]

I would not go to the trouble of angling the weir, or turning the elbows. With a long weir, I doubt it will get obnoxious. For future reference 1 - 1.5x the hole diameter from the edge of the glass to the edge of the hole--and from each other. Often the holes must be further down, to accommodate the drain system water level. You have not messed up all that much really, if at all. With this drain system, the water level will be around the top of the elbows.

 

[88rxna]

so getting some info here:
i have a 90 gallon DT with a 30 gallon sump. the sump is going in the basement and it will be pushed back up with a reeflo dart (THANKS uncleof6!).
with the help of him my flow will be 1200GPH using that pump.
reading i see that the TOP of the weir should be 1" from the edge of the glass correct?

finding this chart (from beananimal):
reference:http://reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17705414&postcount=3
Depth of water at crest of 4' recangular contracted weir : Florware in GPH
.10" : 300 GPH
.15" : 540 GPH
.20" : 840 GPH
.25" : 1140 GPH
.30" : 1500 GPH
.35" : 1860 GPH
.40" : 2280 GPH
.45" : 2700 GPH
.50" : 3120 GPH

it looks like i need to now have the top of the weir 1.25" from the top (top edge of the glass) correct? will this room give me enough "play" for start up of the pump also before the returns fully kick in?
i am also in a similar boat as SHIZNO, 1 hole has already been drilled (previous owner) for a sump from gl*******s.com. measuring from the center line of this hole i get 4.75 from the top of the rim. do i just make the front weir longer to accommodate this?

also, how close do the 90's need to be from the bottom of the weir? i assume close enough that snails and such cannot enter? is .25 going to be to small and not allow water to flow correctly?

and by doing some reading, shutting down the return pump and power outages are give my basement floor some watering?

 

[88rxna]

1/2 to 3/4 from bottom of elbow to bottom of weir!!!

after searching FOREVER i found it!
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=20379815&postcount=4826

1 answer down....

 

[uncleof6]

On rimmed tanks, the top of the weir should be placed at the bottom of the trim, as viewed from outside the tank. This places the water line out of site. You are hardly going to have to concern yourself over the 1/4" the water level will be above that. This is a fairly common practice with those of us using long overflows and rimmed tanks.

You make the overflow as tall as needed, to accommodate the plumbing yes.

Big sump and smart design = plenty of spare room for power out drain down.

 

[pandimus]

On rimmed tanks, the top of the weir should be placed at the bottom of the trim, as viewed from outside the tank. This places the water line out of site. You are hardly going to have to concern yourself over the 1/4" the water level will be above that. This is a fairly common practice with those of us using long overflows and rimmed tanks.

You make the overflow as tall as needed, to accommodate the plumbing yes.

Big sump and smart design = plenty of spare room for power out drain down.

i did notice one problem with this after i implemented it. You cannot run any kind of wavemaker due to the fact the water level is too high.

 

[uncleof6]

i did notice one problem with this after i implemented it. You cannot run any kind of wavemaker due to the fact the water level is too high.

Well just for the record, I consider wave makers a waste of time and money. Good flow and properly placed (no dead spots) power heads are all that are needed. Wave makers are just another toy to oooo and awwww over ...

 

[pandimus]

Well just for the record, I consider wave makers a waste of time and money. Good flow and properly placed (no dead spots) power heads are all that are needed. Wave makers are just another toy to oooo and awwww over ...

I dont disagree. Just wanted to make note of in case someone wanted to put a wavemaker in. I will probaly use controllable powerheads and just change my flow around as the day progresses.

 

[d2mini]

However, things that still stand are the 1" siphon should be able to handle 1500 gph with out coughing. If you cannot get that, your system has a bottleneck in it. I am not going to try and guess where the bottle neck is, don't feel like eating my foot again. If you are looking for more than that, then yes, you should open up the plumbing size.

The second is the way the plumbing is configured could cause you some problems. Adjustment, and the siphon may not be kicking in fully. One of the first things I would do is reconfigure that system and eliminate all the horizontal runs. This is a gravity system. Horizontal runs give you no gravity advantage, and they can trap air, and prevent the siphon from fully forming. This will reduce the flow capacity of the drain. Reconfigure includes moving the sump to a more advantageous location,in terms of the drains. It may be inconvenient--but function comes first.

This system works well as designed. (see bean's original design.) The place to start, when trouble shooting a problem, is how much did you change the design. Balanced (or close to it) flow between the open channel and siphon is a problem. (not adjusting correctly) I would expect to see starting issues, with your configuration. And on the surface, from what you say, there is, but it is masked by the adjustment. There should be a very noticeable difference in flow between the siphon and open channel. The only noticeable explanation is the configuration.

Re-plumbed yesterday and it now flows like niagra falls!!! :bounce1:
Man, what a difference. As you can see, no more horizontal runs (except for going through the wall) and no 90 elbows. And now my Reeflo Barracuda Gold return pump is running at full tilt, rather than being turned down to around 50%. And you can see that my siphon drain is also turned down a bit.
The system now starts up as it's supposed to. And almost all my flow is coming out of the siphon with just a trickle out of the open channel.
So now we have definitive proof that BeanAnimal does in fact work as designed when going through a wall!

Thanks for the help!


OLD PIC:

NEW PIC:

 

[TylerHaworth]

Oh my sweet Jesus that is beautiful.

 

[TylerHaworth]

So... I am about to put in my order for my overflow and all of the plumbing, and I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything... This is going on my 4 foot 120 gallon.

I used Bean's exploded diagram to make up my plumbing inventory, except I am using 1 inch plumbing all the way around... Is 1 inch plumbing good if I am only planning about 1000GPH flow through?

My overflow box is going to be 24 inches wide, 4 inches deep, and 5 inches tall... Will this leave enough room inside of the box to slide the strainer elbows into the bulkhead?

Any other tips?