Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

KindCorals said:
If the return pump has 3/4" plumbing and you make it 1", would that be enough or would you recommend going all the way up to 1.5"?
Click to expand...

Depends on the pump, and your target flow rate. If it is a danner mag-drive, yes you need the 1.5" pipe--as a starting point. Other than that, I cannot answer your question.

In terms of friction loss, an increase from 3/4" to 1" should reduce the friction loss by 1/2 to 2/3. The change is significant. In general, never use 3/4" plumbing for a reef tank. TOO much friction loss.

The pump suction intake, and pressure output sizes, do not indicate the size of pipe needed for the system. The needs of the system, target flow rate, and friction loss, determine the pipe size for the outlet, and the outlet size determines the inlet size. (pipe size--unless it is a submersible pump = no suction intake plumbing.)

This whole segment of the system is approached bas*-ackwards. Since the system determines the pipe size, the plumbing should be done, a target flow rate set, the friction loss figured out, and THEN select a pump that will do the job. Everyone buys the pump first = unpredictable results. The first question is: "Why don't I have any flow?"
 
uncleof6 said:
Up-size the return plumbing size, and that will make up for the additional length of the run, as well as the 45&deg's;. If the return pipe size ends up larger than the pump intake plumbing size, up-size the pump suction line as well.
Click to expand...

uncleof6 said:
Depends on the pump, and your target flow rate. If it is a danner mag-drive, yes you need the 1.5" pipe--as a starting point. Other than that, I cannot answer your question.

In terms of friction loss, an increase from 3/4" to 1" should reduce the friction loss by 1/2 to 2/3. The change is significant. In general, never use 3/4" plumbing for a reef tank. TOO much friction loss.

The pump suction intake, and pressure output sizes, do not indicate the size of pipe needed for the system. The needs of the system, target flow rate, and friction loss, determine the pipe size for the outlet, and the outlet size determines the inlet size. (pipe size--unless it is a submersible pump = no suction intake plumbing.)

This whole segment of the system is approached bas*-ackwards. Since the system determines the pipe size, the plumbing should be done, a target flow rate set, the friction loss figured out, and THEN select a pump that will do the job. Everyone buys the pump first = unpredictable results. The first question is: "Why don't I have any flow?"
Click to expand...



Hm, that's an eye opener, 'cause I was thinking that 3/4 return pipe would be sufficient enough for my system:

> The net water volume will be ~130g in DT + ~50g in sump = 180g.
> The overflow pipe size will be 1.5'' (all 3 of them) with vertical drain to the sump as discussed.
> The two candidate pumps I'm looking at, the first is 1.25'' inlet/outlet thread (with max 2640gph flow) and the other is 1.75'' inlet/outlet thread (with max 2213gph flow), so I assume either is fine since their threads can be narrowed down with an adaptor. The pump will be placed inside the sump as per the scetch.

Targeting a minimum X10 flow rate and taking into consideration the return pipe length and travelling, the 45o elbows and the friction losses, what return pipe size would you recommend, 1'' 1.25'' or even up to 1.5''?

Would a flexible rubber return pipe of the above diameter enhance the return flow even more than the equivalent PVC size and should be prefered for this reason?
 
Hudds said:
Hm, that's an eye opener, 'cause I was thinking that 3/4 return pipe would be sufficient enough for my system:

> The net water volume will be ~130g in DT + ~50g in sump = 180g.
> The overflow pipe size will be 1.5'' (all 3 of them) with vertical drain to the sump as discussed.
> The two candidate pumps I'm looking at, the first is 1.25'' inlet/outlet thread (with max 2640gph flow) and the other is 1.75'' inlet/outlet thread (with max 2213gph flow), so I assume either is fine since their threads can be narrowed down with an adaptor. The pump will be placed inside the sump as per the scetch.

Targeting a minimum X10 flow rate and taking into consideration the return pipe length and travelling, the 45o elbows and the friction losses, what return pipe size would you recommend, 1'' 1.25'' or even up to 1.5''?

Would a flexible rubber return pipe of the above diameter enhance the return flow even more than the equivalent PVC size and should be prefered for this reason?
Click to expand...

First I don't see the "choice" of pump, as being a choice you need to make. Hands down, the DC-10000 is the pump for the job. (2640 gph, 1.25" in/out.)

Definitely 1.5" pressure line pipe size, and no reductions. Submersible (default) plumb the outlet with 1.5" and good to go.

When I say the pump inlet/outlet size do not determine the plumbing side, I am not inferring that we may want to go DOWN in pipe size, rather up in size; 3/4" and 1" are not sizes that should even be considered, for a pump with 1.25" in/out.

What pump has 1.75" outlet threads? The sizes go from 1.5" to 2"...
 
Ok, so Im pretty heistant to post as I feel like after skimming the 231 pages of this thread I still feel very confused. Maybe I missed a simple page link that shows the basics of all this? But my question none the less is I am in proces of planning a 190 48x30x25 with two 40 gallon breeders as a sump/refugium. What is the advantage of putting on an external overflow if you already placed a "weir" into the DT? Could I have the manufactor of my tank just put three holes in the back top of the aquarium, and I costum make the "weir"? Meaning forgo the external all together? Just needing help understanding as I dont trust my ability to silicone something externally, as well as I dont want a massive internal EYE sore overflow that the tank would come with. NO point in going deep demensions if you have a big overflow taking up the center of the tank..
 
Also sea swirls run of Iwaki pump external would be my source of return...Actually I just called the guys making me a tank, and they said they lower the back wall, and will do a coast to coast overflow. That is the correct term for the external overflow? and a weir wouldnt be needed right, since they are cutting into the backwall to make it water fall into the coast to coast? sorry this is my second tank and I dont know all the mass amounts of termanology yet.
 
Last edited:
uncleof6 said:
First I don't see the "choice" of pump, as being a choice you need to make. Hands down, the DC-10000 is the pump for the job. (2640 gph, 1.25" in/out.)

Definitely 1.5" pressure line pipe size, and no reductions. Submersible (default) plumb the outlet with 1.5" and good to go.

When I say the pump inlet/outlet size do not determine the plumbing side, I am not inferring that we may want to go DOWN in pipe size, rather up in size; 3/4" and 1" are not sizes that should even be considered, for a pump with 1.25" in/out.

What pump has 1.75" outlet threads? The sizes go from 1.5" to 2"...
Click to expand...

You got it right, the former is the speedwave/waveline DC10000 and the latter is the BOYU JNB 8000 ECO VARIABLE FREQUENCY PUMP. The former is more sexy but at the same time I'm a bit concerned about the quality issues discussed in the relevant thread here in RC. It looks a bit of a gamble...

So, return plumping sorted out, with 1.5'' spaflex pipe traveling up to the 45o elbow at DT base and then hard PVC upwards to the external overflow box base and then into the DT, through the teeth of the external overflow box. The 3 overflow drain pipes remain 1.5'' as well.

Many thanks for your expert advice uncleof6 :thumbsup:
 
I am looking to do the Bean Animal drain with an Arizona to Alabama overflow(not quite coast to coast) on my new setup which will be a 90 gallon acrylic tank. I am planning on an internal weir with an external overflow around 40" long for both. The reasoning behind this is I would like to run a 4th bulkhead out of the external overflow and have the return plumbing from the sump and the closed loop coming back into the tank on either side of the internal weir. I would appreciate any input on the AZ-AL overflow.

The back of my tank is black and I plan on making the internal weir as small and unobtrusive as possible. How wide does the weir have to be (front to back) and how deep top to bottom.

My local plastic source only has black acrylic up to 1/4".How thick should the acrylic be?
 
If it is an acrylic tank, why do you need an internal box at all? Route two 18 inch slots in the top of the back leaving some material in the middle, glue a 40 inch external box on the outside as deep as you want, but probably 4-5 inches or more, drill the bottom of that for bulkheads and have a beer, cause youre all done. 8)

36 inches of toothless weir should give you less than .25 inches of water height at 1000gph (just a guess at what you might put through it).

You might not even need the material in the middle, actually, cause the bottom of the external box will brace the back.
 
Hey all i have a plumbing question that i couldnt find the answer to in the Ultra quiet drain thread. I have a 40b drilled on both back corners and would like to not have to run a overflow box. With just the 90 elbow as the drain i cant seem to get a good smooth flow going through the pipes, just loud and splashy noise in the sump. Any thoughts?
 
Hudds said:
I'm not sure what's your point uncleof6?
Click to expand...

At times I think folks start threads just to draw negative comments on a particular product. Much of the time, the posters have never even seen or used the product in question, merely repeating what they read somewhere else. There are always two sides to the story. I trust what I see, and use, not in particular what I read. On the other hand, some things that you read--by virtue of the author, are completely unbiased. Speaking of the "trash talk" concerning a pump that was just "recently released" in the US. I also see no problems with the examples I have sitting here.

Has nothing really to do with you, I merely directed you to some comments by someone I know has the pumps and is running them. :)
 
Last edited:
All clear :)

Going back to pipes size, do you foresee any issues on upsizing all overflow drain & return pipes to 2'' in order to take full advantage of the pump's gph performance and therefore maximize flow rates? (i.e. siphon adjustment and operation, gurgling etc)

Is there a significant advantage in tuning precession by using Gate Valves instead of Ball Valves for the siphon and the open pipe or is it more or less the same?

Is it ok if I do not have a valve at all on the emergency pipe? I assume in case of emergency I'd like to have a full open drain pipe, right?
 
2" plumbing is not needed for the DC1000 pump. The system will work as published :)

There is no need for a valve on the open channel or emergency standpipe. They were on mine, as all (3) were setup to be durso in the begining. When I rebuilt the system, I used them on all (3) again for versatility if needed.

INHO there is no need for a gate valve. Just buy a decent quality (hayward) ball valve. A gate valve will not hurt if you so desire. I can set the ball valve with the same basic precision and much faster.
 
Thanks for your reply Beanl! :thumbsup:

I trust on the validity of Uncleof6 and your recco for 1.5'' pipe sizes.

However, I was thinking that since the pump supports a nominal 2640 gph, upsizing to 2'' would assist to make the most out of it since:
> a bigger size siphon pipe would allow even more water to be drained (in gph)
> a bigger size return pipe would have even less friction losses therefore allowing even more water to be returned
> achieving in overall an even higher gph flow rate

That's the rational, but would this work in practice or it will create other kind of problems?
 
Again, a 1.5" pipe is more than sufficient for the flow rate in question. Increasing the size and capacity is pointless and will only make the siphon harder to start and require the valve to be almost fully closed to maintain balanced flow.

Return plumbing should be sized as large as reasonably possible, but for the pumps and flow rates in context, anything over maybe 1.5" will not yield any great benefit.

Respectfully, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of folks using this system "as published" with returns pumps similar to what you will be using. Don't complicate your setup by trying to change the parameters when such changes are not needed.
 
My pumps are so loud!!! I guess the usual gurgling sound drowned out my pump noise, thank you so much for all this information. Mine works great, I think the 1" bulkheads would work for all but the most insanely large tanks, I have a 265 gallon with 1.5" bulkheads and my siphon works good, but I have my valve 3/4 closed with a mag 24. No problems with my setup, but the flow is a lot more than I figured.
 
FuzzyZipperbaum said:
So if I have 2" bulk heads already drilled with only about 800g an hour going through I should just put the reducers right at the bulk head and run 1.5?
Click to expand...

1" pipe will most often handle minimally 1200 gph, with a 24" drop. Longer drops will handle higher flow rates. I would think 1" would be more than sufficient for your system. Open channels will perform better if they are up-sized to 1.25" however. I don't see the need for large pipe on systems with low flow. If you are pushing upwards to 2000 gph with relatively short drops, then 1.5" would be justified.
 
heatdissipation said:
My pumps are so loud!!! I guess the usual gurgling sound drowned out my pump noise, thank you so much for all this information. Mine works great, I think the 1" bulkheads would work for all but the most insanely large tanks, I have a 265 gallon with 1.5" bulkheads and my siphon works good, but I have my valve 3/4 closed with a mag 24. No problems with my setup, but the flow is a lot more than I figured.
Click to expand...

I would disagree with this. My gut instinct says your pump is not performing near what this tank "really" needs. It is not that the drains are so very far ahead of the pump, but the pump way behind the drains--if you get the idea.

This tank should "start" at around 2600 gph. Mag 24 is not capable of getting close to that. In terms of relating to the drains, a great deal depends on the length of the drop. However, with an average drop of 24", and a 3/4 closed 1.5" valve, that would put you in the ball park for 1" pipe, or a flow rate of around 1200gph-1500gph. That is just a rough guess, would be interesting to see what a flow meter would say... :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

AquaticReefTV
DIY Cable management time lapse
Replies
1
Views
518
S|\/|S
S
DjPhato
Overflow and flow-pump location for peninsula
Replies
1
Views
290
Vinny Kreyling
Vinny Kreyling
H
Dry Fit Plumbing Test for 200g, Critique before I glue?
Replies
4
Views
464
Hezamam
H
isseym328
Adding water volume to current set up help
Replies
18
Views
897
JohnL
JohnL
T
220G Tank Setup - Flow/General Advice Needed
2
Replies
23
Views
1K
The Reef Addict
T
Back
Top