blue tangs in very small tanks... what compells people to do so...

Anyone who has ever attempted to extricate a yellow dottyback from a reef knows that fish not only think, they are possessed of diabolical cunning, self awareness, and a cunning plan for world domination.

I had a betta, with a brain under the size of a matchhead, who detested my roommate and would rather die of asphyxiation than surface to breathe with her leaning over his bowl. Me---for me, he would jump out of the water to take food from a flat toothpick I held.

And there's a reason tank size determines fish size; they max out and they die. That pretty well stops growth.
 
When you consider where these fish come from , i.e., The Ocean, isn't it really a little silly to say that a 6' tank is so much better than a 4' tank?
 
When you consider where these fish come from , i.e., The Ocean, isn't it really a little silly to say that a 6' tank is so much better than a 4' tank?

I believe that 6' is the magic number because that is about the distance it takes a tang to get up to top speed.
 
When you consider where these fish come from , i.e., The Ocean, isn't it really a little silly to say that a 6' tank is so much better than a 4' tank?

I always wonder how much of it has to do with the fact that as a group, we have chosen to fit "proper tank sizing" for tangs into a set of rules that's easily and conveniently applied to the context that we're experiencing this hobby in, so that it includes enough people to be happy and excludes enough people for the happy people to not feel guilty.

Another way of saying this is, why is 48" decidedly the minimum tank size to keep a content tang? Is it an odd coincidence that the 48" 55g happens to be the archetypal aquarium? What if in an alternate universe, 60" tanks are the norm? Would it be OK to keep tangs in anything shorter?

I'm just asking questions; I don't actually have any opinion on the matter... But if I were between a rock and a hard place, I'd probably say leave the tangs and angels in the ocean, just keep small wrasses, blennies, gobies, damsels etc...
 
Well put, Jeremy!

Anyone who has ever attempted to extricate a yellow dottyback from a reef knows that fish not only think, they are possessed of diabolical cunning, self awareness, and a cunning plan for world domination.
X2 :lol: But I was thinking of a particular mantis I once knew ;)
 
jokes aside, fish are very intelligent, and show the ability to learn and adapt... alot of personality and interaction with the enviroment and the ability to learn that enviroment... and use it to hunt, feed and for cover and security... to say that they are just there, is kinda silly... amazing creatures, as why we are are here parousing these threads in the first place... and corals as well :)
 
Can you provide a link to some authoritative guidance that supports those assertions? I would be interested to read them. Personally, I would believe that any "stunting" of growth is more easily attributable to improprer nutrition and housing rather than some on/off growth switch triggered by tank size.

I think maybe I was not clear. I don't support putting large fish in small tanks. Although I have a Hippo Tang in my 75. I just wanted to inject a little reality into the discussion. That realality is that a tang that would reach 12" in the wild will not grow to 12" in even in a 200 gallon tank. It's not stunting or an on/off switch. It's a survival response to the environment becoming progressivly smaller in relation to the fish's size. I think that fits in with your "Housing" theory. Where we might disagree is that I believe that while growth stops or greatly slows, the fish is no less healthy. I can't recall reading anything that specifically addresses this issue, but I've observed it over the years, particularly in Tangs and Angelfish.
 
many of you make great points for both sides of the discussion i will admit, but all i am saying in a nutshell, is the 3' or smaller tanks, cubes or not, well i jus feel like they are too small for this individual fish... again i have spent much time watching other species of tangs in the wild and have seen many in more in various captive homes... i wont argue you about a 75, my intentions where originally something half that size... 45 and less particulary... again i do appreciate anyone who is willing to participate in the discussion
 
I think maybe I was not clear. I don't support putting large fish in small tanks. Although I have a Hippo Tang in my 75. I just wanted to inject a little reality into the discussion. That realality is that a tang that would reach 12" in the wild will not grow to 12" in even in a 200 gallon tank. It's not stunting or an on/off switch. It's a survival response to the environment becoming progressivly smaller in relation to the fish's size. I think that fits in with your "Housing" theory. Where we might disagree is that I believe that while growth stops or greatly slows, the fish is no less healthy. I can't recall reading anything that specifically addresses this issue, but I've observed it over the years, particularly in Tangs and Angelfish.

I dont really agree with this assessment. People always take the maximum size of an organism as EVERY individual of that species will grow to that size. Just like with humans, fish are genetically disposed to grow to a different maximum size depending on their descendants. Not every tang in the wild will grow to the maximum just as every grizzly bear doesnt grow to 1500 lbs.
 
this is a tough argument both ways, and I wish I still had access to my reports from college, but put simple here's what we learned. since all fish grow infinitely, there are a great number of factors that influence growth of fish in any closed environment. it's true that any fish with a max size of 12" may or may not grow to 12" BUT they will approach it a great deal of time under similar conditions. Also, with some marine fish that have been stunted, an increase in aquarium size usually yields an increase in overall growth. We completed a study on lionfish and summer flounder. I will try to find the reports as we had great findings, but I think everyone's in agreement that our fish should have the greatest amount of space possible :eek1:
 
Almost all of us are in this hobby for egoistical reasons. We attempt to replicate a beautiful part of nature in our own homes, because it pleases us. This includes taking animals out of their natural habitats and placing them in an artificial habitat. It is my ethical viewpoint that this is only acceptable when we combine heaps of love and respect for these animals with our own egoism. Unfortunately, this is not the case for all, and I believe people that do not attempt to optimize conditions for their animals should not be allowed to keep them, whether they be horses, cats, dogs or fish.

I used the word optimize above. It is clear that we cannot replicate the natural reefs perfectly, but it is certainly possible to come close, or to come very short indeed. We should try to optimize the conditions to reflect their natural habitats as closely as possible. This is important, because it matters to the animals how close we get. Only when we succeed are we caring for our animals because it is not necesarrily the same to them whether they find themselves trapped in a 40 g tank or a 200 g tank.

I say necesarrily because their requirements differ greatly. None of the fish we keep require the "whole ocean" as their habitat. It annoys me when people imply they do. Clownfish only uses a few square meters. Tangs a lot more. Whale sharks a whole lot more than that, again. But all fish has a certain requirement when it comes to space, and it is our job to investigate this and set up our tanks accordingly.

I also used the expression the same to them. This may unfortunately be interpreted to them having human emotions, which they don't. I don't believe blue tangs in a short tank are "unhappy", or that they are "happy" in a long tank. We don't treat them humanely (oh the irony) because we want them to be happy, but because improper treatment may lead to stress, diseases, physiological defects, metabolic problems, illnesses and death (yes, overlap between many of these terms), and this is contradictionary to loving and respecting them. It is unethical, and in most cases and countries illegal, to mistreat other animals.

Some argue that if the fish grows and swims it is fine. They even say "it looks happy". The fish does what it is evolved to do. Existing in an inadequat environment does not always mean that the fish will roll over and die immediately. There is no evolutionary reason why a fish, or any animal, should just give up. The fish will only stop swimming when it starts bumping its head in the walls, or when disease strikes. But then it is often too late. The fish will continue to eat even when it is caged, because there is no evolutionary reason for it going on hunger strike and further decrease its survival probability by adding undernourishment to its troubles. It may look happy to you because you compare it to humans that often forget to eat when stressed, or believe it has some sort of disease that prevents it from moving suffciently to catch food, but this is wrong. It is neither happy (or unhappy) nor treated with love and respect.

It all boils down to love. If you really love the nature you try to replicate you should realize that this implies that you need to treat the animals decently, and this means that you should offer them an artificial environment that as closely as possible mimics its habitat (not the entire ocean!) in the wild. If this is too much bother than I think you don't really love the animals, you just like to look at them and may I then suggest you instead buy yourself a reef DVD?
 
OK I had a 29 gallon tank with a small 1.5 inch Blue Hippo in it. I QT'd him and placed him in there for the last 3 weeks of cycling of my 180 then he moved to his big home. I did not see a issue with this. I rescued him from the LFS is my opinion where he was in a smaller tank than my 29 gallon. But he loves to stretch his fins in the 180.
 
I think maybe I was not clear. I don't support putting large fish in small tanks. Although I have a Hippo Tang in my 75. I just wanted to inject a little reality into the discussion. That realality is that a tang that would reach 12" in the wild will not grow to 12" in even in a 200 gallon tank. It's not stunting or an on/off switch. It's a survival response to the environment becoming progressivly smaller in relation to the fish's size. I think that fits in with your "Housing" theory. Where we might disagree is that I believe that while growth stops or greatly slows, the fish is no less healthy. I can't recall reading anything that specifically addresses this issue, but I've observed it over the years, particularly in Tangs and Angelfish.

A survival response to the environment? In general survival responses to environmental changes happen in two ways, learning or gene selection. Learning can't keep a fish smaller and gene selection can't happen in a single generation. If it were to have an internal ability to adapt like some FW fish mentioned above.... this ability would need to have some selective advantage for a fish to possess it. Fish from the ocean would have no need to have such an ability.


this is a tough argument both ways, and I wish I still had access to my reports from college, but put simple here's what we learned. since all fish grow infinitely, there are a great number of factors that influence growth of fish in any closed environment. it's true that any fish with a max size of 12" may or may not grow to 12" BUT they will approach it a great deal of time under similar conditions. Also, with some marine fish that have been stunted, an increase in aquarium size usually yields an increase in overall growth. We completed a study on lionfish and summer flounder. I will try to find the reports as we had great findings, but I think everyone's in agreement that our fish should have the greatest amount of space possible :eek1:

I think that the statements, "all fish grow infinitely" and "any fish with a max size of 12" are contradictory. If I keep my clownfish forever and they live longer than they would in the wild..... they will not keep growing indefinitely.

Rebound growth IMO would support the fact that fish are being stunted through less than optimal conditions and are less healthy. Let's look at humans (realizing of course there are a great many differences biologically). If humans are malnourished they will have stunted growth. If they grow up in a poor learning environment they will have their cognitive abilities stunted. If better conditions are introduced some rebounds will be made if they happen during the age that growth still occurs in humans. Since fish do tend to grow more of their overall life, they may have a wider window for rebound. That is conjecture on my part though.
 
Almost all of us are in this hobby for egoistical reasons. We attempt to replicate a beautiful part of nature in our own homes, because it pleases us. This includes taking animals out of their natural habitats and placing them in an artificial habitat. It is my ethical viewpoint that this is only acceptable when we combine heaps of love and respect for these animals with our own egoism. Unfortunately, this is not the case for all, and I believe people that do not attempt to optimize conditions for their animals should not be allowed to keep them, whether they be horses, cats, dogs or fish.

I used the word optimize above. It is clear that we cannot replicate the natural reefs perfectly, but it is certainly possible to come close, or to come very short indeed. We should try to optimize the conditions to reflect their natural habitats as closely as possible. This is important, because it matters to the animals how close we get. Only when we succeed are we caring for our animals because it is not necesarrily the same to them whether they find themselves trapped in a 40 g tank or a 200 g tank.

I say necesarrily because their requirements differ greatly. None of the fish we keep require the "whole ocean" as their habitat. It annoys me when people imply they do. Clownfish only uses a few square meters. Tangs a lot more. Whale sharks a whole lot more than that, again. But all fish has a certain requirement when it comes to space, and it is our job to investigate this and set up our tanks accordingly.

I also used the expression the same to them. This may unfortunately be interpreted to them having human emotions, which they don't. I don't believe blue tangs in a short tank are "unhappy", or that they are "happy" in a long tank. We don't treat them humanely (oh the irony) because we want them to be happy, but because improper treatment may lead to stress, diseases, physiological defects, metabolic problems, illnesses and death (yes, overlap between many of these terms), and this is contradictionary to loving and respecting them. It is unethical, and in most cases and countries illegal, to mistreat other animals.

Some argue that if the fish grows and swims it is fine. They even say "it looks happy". The fish does what it is evolved to do. Existing in an inadequat environment does not always mean that the fish will roll over and die immediately. There is no evolutionary reason why a fish, or any animal, should just give up. The fish will only stop swimming when it starts bumping its head in the walls, or when disease strikes. But then it is often too late. The fish will continue to eat even when it is caged, because there is no evolutionary reason for it going on hunger strike and further decrease its survival probability by adding undernourishment to its troubles. It may look happy to you because you compare it to humans that often forget to eat when stressed, or believe it has some sort of disease that prevents it from moving suffciently to catch food, but this is wrong. It is neither happy (or unhappy) nor treated with love and respect.

It all boils down to love. If you really love the nature you try to replicate you should realize that this implies that you need to treat the animals decently, and this means that you should offer them an artificial environment that as closely as possible mimics its habitat (not the entire ocean!) in the wild. If this is too much bother than I think you don't really love the animals, you just like to look at them and may I then suggest you instead buy yourself a reef DVD?

This was a good post, well thought out. Thank you!
 
OK I had a 29 gallon tank with a small 1.5 inch Blue Hippo in it. I QT'd him and placed him in there for the last 3 weeks of cycling of my 180 then he moved to his big home. I did not see a issue with this. I rescued him from the LFS is my opinion where he was in a smaller tank than my 29 gallon. But he loves to stretch his fins in the 180.

Quarantine tanks are a totally separate issue.
 
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